In a recent battle, the following scenario happened,(//) Unit A and B charged, Unit A continued past the flank to attack a unit that was set back 1 base width.
First question, in movement can the second ranks in Unit 1 and 3 turn to fight Unit A during Melee, armed only with short spear they are not supporting the front rank in fighting,
Diagram attached
[attachment deleted by admin]
9.4G1.2 (page80) would appear to apply. "Where an UG is in side contact with the side edge of an enemy IF it may turn 90o in movement and thereby create a Melee Combat to the side.
So yes, you can. Note however that if you do this and the element facing to the front is killed, you may expose yourself to a flank charge! (but see below)
Richard
A contrary argument would be that the rule says that the UG can turn 90 degrees and not that bases/files can turn.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 07, 2019, 01:18:43 PM
A contrary argument would be that the rule says that the UG can turn 90 degrees and not that bases/files can turn.
I do note the point that page 80 appears to refer to turning the whole UG, not individual bases.
However:
The QRS MF1 says that you can move unengaged bases to a single new file, (note you cannot do it as an MF2 move because the enemy is not in frontal contact).
9.2B1 (page 56) says that while in combat an UG can end up in any formation that the combat requires.
Richard
Interesting, hadn't though of MF1 being used like that. Claries diagram on Files & Supporting Files certainly shows that bases at 90 degress are a different file.
So, in which case, in the following situation from last night (IIRC, but an example regardless):
(https://i.imgur.com/a8qkygu.jpg)
Base A could have been turned onto the flank of base X with an MF1 move?
What about base B?
And in Roger's example would you have to move the 3rd rank base in some way before moving the 2nd rank base in order to give the 2nd rank base room to fit - otherwise it'll be trying to put a 40mm frontage into a 20mm space.
Your diagram has set me thinking.
Base A is an engaged base (it is an overlap) so cannot form a new file.
Base B is not engaged but I am pretty sure it is not allowed to form a new file on the flank - I just can't find a clarrie or rule that prevents it. (I guess the same would apply to the example Robin gave).
This needs clarification!
Richard
Page 80 G1.2 says UG may turn 90 degrees to face and the diagram shows Gallic warriors fighting to the front but having the ability to turn a file, and with 9.2B1 (page 56) saying that while in combat an UG can end up in any formation that the combat requires, there doesn't seem to be a reason why they shouldn't turn to fight ;D
OK Question 2 if unit 1 and 3 where already formed in ORB so were already facing (so able to fight) in all directions could they engage in the charge combat Phase? rather than melee
Question 3 would that be a flank attack :D
I just hope we are not going to introduce lots of cheesy moves that will spoil an excellent set of rules.
Quote from: marshalney2000 on February 07, 2019, 10:30:30 PM
I just hope we are not going to introduce lots of cheesy moves that will spoil an excellent set of rules.
Amen
Quote from: Roger on February 07, 2019, 09:43:23 PM
Page 80 G1.2 says UG may turn 90 degrees to face and the diagram shows Gallic warriors fighting to the front but having the ability to turn a file, and with 9.2B1 (page 56) saying that while in combat an UG can end up in any formation that the combat requires, there doesn't seem to be a reason why they shouldn't turn to fight ;D
As we have noted above the rule on page 80 refers to whe whole UG turning and not single bases/files - so it does not apply in your example. The diagram on the same page refers to an MF2 move which allows turning bases which have enemy in frontal contact with their flank/rear - again your example is not such a case and so this move does not apply.
I had that discussion with Simon. The intend is that only a TUG that acts as supportcould turn 90° not a single base of a TUG. it was done in order to avoid cheesy situations, moves and so on ...just my 2 cents
Quote from: badhabum on February 08, 2019, 10:02:06 AM
I had that discussion with Simon. The intend is that only a TUG that acts as supportcould turn 90° not a single base of a TUG. it was done in order to avoid cheesy situations, moves and so on ...just my 2 cents
Not just intent it is in the claries - as RJC pointed out above a supporting base counts as engaged and so cannot use the MF1 move. What about unengaged bases ...
I haven't my rules with me but does the rule not say that the TUG that turns 90° to make acontact in the flank have to be in support ???
The situation re: an UG turning 90 degrees to create a combat has been covered above and isn't relevent to the situation being discussed.
I understood the restriction on moves if the base was engaged to its front in a support role, but unengaged bases? This impacts on My question 2 if Unit 1 and 3 where in orb could they fight:
1. in charge and melee Phase?
2. in melee Phase?
3. Not at all?
Oh your a good bunch of demolishers, challengers and tigheners ;)... which I have no issue with as its a good thing and will as ever take on board and make even more precise as needed. :D Cheesy moves to be eliminated where found.
MF2 moves first.
Notes are:"Turn any or all bases with enemy in frontal contact with their flank or rear to face enemy."
So this a response for bases that have enemy fronts in contact with them, set to do them damage.
A "turn and fight the buggers back" order. Hence quite cheap.
So clearly cannot be used here as the enemy are in side edge contact.
Turn 90.
Can only be executed as a move if not engaged to the front as you have to turn the entire UG.
Example therefore that.
MF1 moves
Are intended for use only when in combat.
Notes: "Create Supporting Files, fill gaps, create new rear ranks etc. Multiple actions allowed."
Alas that "etc." may be a lazy error on my part.
MF1 is to create people fighting. So it really is "Create Supporting Files, fill file gaps, create new files or create new rear ranks" and nothing more (?check).
That again is why it is cheaper than some of the equivalent moves such as an expansion move M7.
But with the "etc." I can see how it could be rightly argued that this includes using it to just "expand" as per M7 on the cheap. My mistake.
It is a response to close enemy and an imminent and present danger. I think to get that I simply need to delete the etc?
Can a few of your bright minds check I am correct.
Or perhaps enough to remind everyone that MF1 and MF2 are move when an UG is in combat ONLY and then the etc. is fine
I have to admit and a little dizzy with a few challegining family issues at present and still having flashbacks from car incident alas. So not at my best.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
I have to admit and a little dizzy with a few challegining family issues at present and still having flashbacks from car incident alas. So not at my best.
Sort that first - far more important than our questions on playing with lead dollies 8)
Back to the question - I think in picture I posted the issue would be around the "create new files" in your suggestion.
QuoteSo it really is "Create Supporting Files, fill file gaps, create new files or create new rear ranks" and nothing more
In this case base B being moved onto the flank of base X so that B is in a flanking position (as this creates a new file).
Ok edit.. new files on current facing...Si
I think from the general drift of the comments, that the answer to my question 1 is in a nutshell NO!! ;D
Ok Question 2 if my units 1 and 3 were in ORB
could they fight:
1. in charge and melee Phase?
2. in melee Phase?
3. Not at all?
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 02:27:38 PM
Ok edit.. new files on current facing...Si
of the file you are creating the new file next to - covers when UGs are facing in more than 1 direction.
Thank you Nik, it does indeed.
I had another way but that is neater.
Si
QuoteOk Question 2 if my units 1 and 3 were in ORB
could they fight:
1. in charge and melee Phase?
2. in melee Phase?
3. Not at all?
Nice one Roger. So here is orb extract below. So they fight to old front/flank/rear single rank deep.
So if enemy are in contact with them on any front they fight them.
So melee for sure and if somehow they got into contact in charge phase they would fight.
But note they cannot be formed except outside 2BW of enemy TuGs and move but 1BW, so likely it will be enemy contacting you.
Quote16. ORB
Orb represents the ability to form a square or orb with no flanks to attack, often a last stand or to hold a flank against cavalry.
1. To form an Orb all files must be at least 2 ranks deep.
2. Changing into Orb requires a YELLOW card in the Movement Phase while remaining
stationary and ≥2BW from enemy TuGs.
3. Reverse the facing of the rear rank to show the troops are in Orb.
4. An Orb fights 1-deep in all directions, but it has no flank or rear (so all fights are
frontal) and it can have no Supporting Files against it. Troops fighting an Orb cannot
claim Supporting Files from friends.
5. Troops may come out of Orb by making a normal move and can reform on the facing
of either rank prior to moving.
6. While in Orb, UGs can move 1BW in any direction in any terrain at the cost of a
GREEN card.
[/i][/b]
Had the distance, just lacked the Knowledge ;D ;D, would they count a flank?
Quote from: Roger on February 11, 2019, 01:43:33 PM
Had the distance, just lacked the Knowledge ;D ;D, would they count a flank?
Never against.
But yes if they did end up somehow in contact with an enemy flank they would.
Kind of like a napoleonic set of British squares for the ancient world.
If you ever engineer it do post photos - would be quite and achievement.
S