A TUG with Keil characteristic is partially immune to flank charges.
If charged in the flank, if in a block with another pike with keil, it will fight as if the bases were facing the cgarger and one rank deep.
Now what about if the keil is already engaged to the front and fighting to the front or charged to the front ?
How do we resolve it ?
The flank charge is a flank charge as the phalanx is already fighting to the front or
The phalanx may fight "as if" one or two bases are turned on the side protecting the flank but then what about the frontal charge/fight ????
Some might argue that it fights to the front and has no flank no matter what but that would really be strange to me !
Quote from: badhabum on February 03, 2019, 12:33:31 PM
Some might argue that it fights to the front and has no flank no matter what
They'd do that on the basis it is what the rules say one assumes.
That is not my understanding .
You either fight to the front or you turn to face the enemy on the flank.
Bases would fight as if they were turned ...no need to turn but still they fight ...So it is not that simple to me as they cannot face to the front and to the flank at the same time.
My view (and I was responsible for suggesting this characteristic so it is probably my fault!).
If the keil file does not turn to face it is a single file. Treat it as a single file facing two opponents. 9.5C.6 (p 83) indicates it can only roll for one of these fights.
At impact:
If contacted solely in the flank, the file fights as if it was a 1 deep Pike file fighting frontally. It does not turn to face (as this is still treated as a frontal charge).
If contacted in both front and flank, both enemy files fight but the Keil file chooses which file it wants to fight; either the file to the front (as if the file was not contacted in the flank) or the file that has contacted it in the flank (as 1 deep pike). It would probably choose the former.
After impact:
The keil file still does not have to turn to face. The enemy file could choose to align to the front (if the other rules for aligning are obeyed) but is unlikely to want to.
If neither move the melee is treated as 1 deep pike vs enemy file factors. The flank file could have a second file claiming an overlap (again as if fighting 1 deep pike).
Richard
So Keil formation can never be charged in the flank, even if fighting to the front .
If that's what it is, then "keil" is rather cheap .The attacking unit never gets the +4 when charging the flank, never the + 2 for fighting in the flank.
And most of the swiss get to move as SUG ... a panzer division has been created 8)
Quote from: badhabum on February 03, 2019, 07:28:06 PM
So Keil formation can never be charged in the flank, even if fighting to the front .
If that's what it is, then "keil" is rather cheap .The attacking unit never gets the +4 when charging the flank, never the + 2 for fighting in the flank.
And most of the swiss get to move as SUG ... a panzer division has been created 8)
A couple of Swiss pike blocks is very expensive. I think we should see if it is a game breaker before making snap judgements. I'll go out on a limb and say Swiss won't be the killer army of 2019... personally, I think the Kiel and fleet of foot are great characteristics for these pike blocks, it gives the flavour of the period.
For what it's worth I haven't seen too many pike blocks get flank charged. People tend to protect them.
The Late Swiss are strong but not undefeatable. A 10,000 pt army will get you 5 TuGs of 8 pikemen and not much else. That leaves it pretty vulnerable to skirmishing.
Also if 4 deep, each TuG in a Keil can only ever fight with 2 files, but potentially if hit to front and flank could be fighting against 5 files, 3 of which are fighting only 1 deep pike.
The other trick of course is to force them to break the Kiel. Then they suddenly become vulnerable in the flanks.
The remaining option is to get behind their rear.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 04, 2019, 08:22:15 AM
The remaining option is to get behind their rear.
Where their Poor unfortified camp will be ...
Quote22. KIEL
TuGs with Kiel characteristic are adept at protecting and fighting to flank when in large formations - Swiss and Landsknechts being the primary exponents in this period.
1. If a TuG with Kiel is adjacent to (side edge contact and front bases aligned) another TuG with Kiel, bases fight to flank as if they were turned to face, but 1 rank deep (therefore gaining no rank factors but negating any +s to the enemy for flank charge or melee).
2. Rear charges, however, are just as devastating against Kiels as others.
So if hit on flank, bases contacted can fight as if frontal and 1 rank deep. So Swiss will get 1 base, single rank pike so may cancel factors for mounted say, and +1 for Sup. And suffer no +4 against.
But a base can only roll dice once so they then cannot contribute to the fight frontally. Owners choice whether to roll dice to flank and weaken the front, or roll no dice and add to factors for the front. Interesting decision.
Si
Yes but if it decide to use all 4 bases to the front, it still gets a base facing the flank assault even if it will not fight.
And a keil may be only 2 deep, it is still a keil :)
Under good conditions, 5 keils can ruin your day ... and with 4 MU they can cross some rough terrain rather quickly ...
Well this WE I will see at rimble and rumble .
I tought about it and even if you charge in the "protected" flank with an average infantry spear unit ( as are many inf units of that time when not pike ) , during tha charge you will be on green ( short spear vs supérior ) , after that, on white as you face some superior unit...Hurray for the keil .
Average charging lancers have also a difficult time vs a keil even in the flank at best a green .
Wonder what will happen to the swiss this week-end ;)
Quote from: badhabum on February 05, 2019, 08:24:25 PM
Well this WE I will see at rimble and rumble .
I tought about it and even if you charge in the "protected" flank with an average infantry spear unit ( as are many inf units of that time when not pike ) , during tha charge you will be on green ( short spear vs supérior ) , after that, on white as you face some superior unit...Hurray for the keil .
Average charging lancers have also a difficult time vs a keil even in the flank at best a green .
Wonder what will happen to the swiss this week-end ;)
An 8 strong superior swiss keil is 1432 points (179 points a base), not sure how many of those will be in an army ;) If the swiss fight with a base to their flank then they will lose a base frontally. I think in most cases the swiss will be using bases fighting frontally and copping unanswered hits in the side from short spear, shield cover troops troops who cost 77 points a base. Even if they are still 4 deep and choose to fight one base to the flank they will probably lose on white dice attrition. And once they lose the 4th rank they will be in real trouble.
FWIW I found the swiss in a test game destroyed things frontally but suffered gradual attrition from flanks that made the second half of the game challenging. They took down 4 TuGs with ease but were then creaking trying to get the rest while the enemy nibbled back a few. So felt quite close if played well on both sides. Will be fun to see how it plays this year. The FoF is a challenge to cope with for sure.
S
When most of the armies at 10000 points will have a breakpoint around 5 or 6 ...4 units is much
QuoteAnd once they lose the 4th rank they will be in real trouble.
Why, frontally they still are sup and get a +2 , they are still a keil so the white dice or the opponent have better be good 1 chance in 3 to get a wound. Playable but still not deadly . It takes time .
Quote from: badhabum on February 06, 2019, 12:23:07 PM
When most of the armies at 10000 points will have a breakpoint around 5 or 6 ...4 units is much
Most break on 5 or 6 or are very mobile.
So my sense is that played well you can lose 3 to them and then cause them trouble.
Time will tell.
Si
We will see
At IWC most armies broke at 5 , only 2 at 6 .
And we had some infantry based armies ...
It will be interesting to see if they use the break-off much (on yellow, no KAB). Their toughest contemporary opponents would be melee expert landsknechts and foot knights with melee expert or superior foot knights, both of which will be at a minus at impact and evens in melee. Interesting match ups!
I'm building some Italian wars armies, and I think these little characteristics really add to the flavour of the period, as long as they are appropriately costed I don't think they will be game breakers, but as you say, we'll see.
The problem for me is simple : the italian war is a book thatconcerns some real late european armies and I fear a bit too late a so difficult to find a good match or tournament theme .
I know RJC has suggested that the Italian Wars books should probably best be used as a stand alone and not incorporated with others in comps.
All
Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.
Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.
Simon
and after all, it is the organiser's decision ;D
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:10:46 PM
All
Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.
Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.
Simon
I for one would be pretty annoyed if the Italian Wars lists suddenly became orphans, only to be used against each other (yes, I have 100+ landsknechts, Swiss and Italians in the painting queue).
I have to ask, why? Are they breaking the game, are they unbeatable? Is the technology too advanced? Lots of armies have firearms by the 15th century. Are they too late (If so I'd expect that Sengoku, Takeda, Nobunaga and Ikko Ikki should also be sent to the scrap heap, as they have firearms and are after the date of Late Swiss)
Who will Charles the Bold fight with the Late Swiss gone, or will Burgundian Ordonnance be red-carded too? Or will Late Swiss be moved into another book? In which case I'd argue what is the difference between Maximilian German and Late Swiss.
Maybe in France and the UK you are used to having themes, but in Oz, even when FoG was getting around 40 players to a comp, we weren't using themes. I don't have a problem with them and I'd gladly play in them, but the player base for MeG in Oz is way below the level we could run themed comps. If tournament organisers want to use themes, go ahead, but just pulling a book out of the game, when the armies have been usable for two years or more, I don't see the point. Like some of the list changes, it seems to be solving a non-existent problem.
If, after 6 months or so, Italian States or Trastamara Spanish is beating all comers then take a look at points etc, but just to delete 14 lists from a game where they have been happily living for two years without any problems, is not a way to keep the punters happy. I'd be even less happy if it were an open comp and someone could rock up with Nobunaga Japanese chock-a-block with firearms and my Maximilian Germans or Late Swiss were banned.
Cheers,
Craig
Quote from: craig.w on February 09, 2019, 10:09:20 AM
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:10:46 PM
All
Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.
Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.
Simon
I for one would be pretty annoyed if the Italian Wars lists suddenly became orphans, only to be used against each other (yes, I have 100+ landsknechts, Swiss and Italians in the painting queue).
I have to ask, why? Are they breaking the game, are they unbeatable? Is the technology too advanced? Lots of armies have firearms by the 15th century. Are they too late (If so I'd expect that Sengoku, Takeda, Nobunaga and Ikko Ikki should also be sent to the scrap heap, as they have firearms and are after the date of Late Swiss)
Who will Charles the Bold fight with the Late Swiss gone, or will Burgundian Ordonnance be red-carded too? Or will Late Swiss be moved into another book? In which case I'd argue what is the difference between Maximilian German and Late Swiss.
Maybe in France and the UK you are used to having themes, but in Oz, even when FoG was getting around 40 players to a comp, we weren't using themes. I don't have a problem with them and I'd gladly play in them, but the player base for MeG in Oz is way below the level we could run themed comps. If tournament organisers want to use themes, go ahead, but just pulling a book out of the game, when the armies have been usable for two years or more, I don't see the point. Like some of the list changes, it seems to be solving a non-existent problem.
If, after 6 months or so, Italian States or Trastamara Spanish is beating all comers then take a look at points etc, but just to delete 14 lists from a game where they have been happily living for two years without any problems, is not a way to keep the punters happy. I'd be even less happy if it were an open comp and someone could rock up with Nobunaga Japanese chock-a-block with firearms and my Maximilian Germans or Late Swiss were banned.
Cheers,
Craig
I'll second what Craig has posted.
Deleting lists after we've bought armies etc is a GREAT way to alienate your player base - especially those outside the UK who are trying to grow the scene and not yet at a point where themed comps are realistic (outside, maaaaybe, Classical).
A line had to be drawn somewhere. It was. 2 years ago. And maintained. Stick with what we've been provided, not redrawing an arbitrary cut off 2.5 years later.
Dru
If, after 6 months or so, Italian States or Trastamara Spanish is beating all comers then take a look at points etc, but just to delete 14 lists from a game where they have been happily living for two years without any problems, is not a way to keep the punters happy. I'd be even less happy if it were an open comp and someone could rock up with Nobunaga Japanese chock-a-block with firearms and my Maximilian Germans or Late Swiss were banned.
Don't jumpy to conclusions chaps. Nothing will get banned.
Merely assuring that we are watching it as one of the few remaining balance/nloundary issues that's all.
First I don't think they will dominate - which is why my vote was for in. I will gladly fight them all with Romans or Gauls.
Second if they did, we would look only drop them temporarily and look at the lists to make them compatible.
Si
This is somewhat reassuring...
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 10, 2019, 07:48:23 AM
Don't jumpy to conclusions chaps. Nothing will get banned.
These two, however, are not. I'm not sure even why it is under discussion whether to remove them or not? Is it some ideological reason - simply too late? Honestly, I'm perplexed why they would be taken out after two years in the game.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 07, 2019, 12:03:47 PM
I know RJC has suggested that the Italian Wars books should probably best be used as a stand alone and not incorporated with others in comps.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:10:46 PM
All
Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.
Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.
Simon
I think they should be allowed but it should count as a slur on one's character if one actually wins a tournament with them. :)
Quote from: craig.w on February 10, 2019, 12:19:51 PM
This is somewhat reassuring...
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 10, 2019, 07:48:23 AM
Don't jumpy to conclusions chaps. Nothing will get banned.
These two, however, are not. I'm not sure even why it is under discussion whether to remove them or not? Is it some ideological reason - simply too late? Honestly, I'm perplexed why they would be taken out after two years in the game.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 07, 2019, 12:03:47 PM
I know RJC has suggested that the Italian Wars books should probably best be used as a stand alone and not incorporated with others in comps.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on February 08, 2019, 12:10:46 PM
All
Yes we are keeping and eye on that crossover list document and open-minded about whether to allow it in or not.
It sits on the MeG/ReG borderline.
Let's see what we discover from its inclusion next week.
Simon
Yup you are right responses sent wrong impression.
Again let's just wait and see as my bet is that there is no issue anyway.
S
Quote from: accard on February 10, 2019, 01:04:59 PM
I think they should be allowed but it should count as a slur on one's character if one actually wins a tournament with them. :)
:D I know who I'd put my money on with your Numidians vs Maximilian German or Italian States - like shooting fish in a barrell!!
As I already wrote, I thinbk it is an organisator's choice . I would ban them from a large medieval theme as if I organise a medieval theme, I would like to see charging knights be them Norman, French or Italian . But that is a choice .But italian wars can be a very late Medieval theme and allow all lists from 1400 to 1525 or something like that.
Seems harsh to me that the Swiss cannot fight to both their flank and their front in Kiel.
The Kiel bonus means they don't suffer any flank penalties, fair enough - but it shouldn't mean they don't have a flank at all - it's still there, it's just protected by doctrine.
I would allow them to roll dice against both attackers personally - Kiel is super duper expensive.
Quote from: stuuk on February 11, 2019, 05:28:57 PM
Seems harsh to me that the Swiss cannot fight to both their flank and their front in Kiel.
The Kiel bonus means they don't suffer any flank penalties, fair enough - but it shouldn't mean they don't have a flank at all - it's still there, it's just protected by doctrine.
I would allow them to roll dice against both attackers personally - Kiel is super duper expensive.
Not correct as Simon clarified (if I understood correctly). If contacted in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th rank, those ranks can choose to fight to the flank, not to the front. The element to the front will lose it's pike support. Alterantively it can fight with the ranks to the front and not get any dice to the flank... See the diagrams on p88 and p89 of the rules.
I am amazed how many people have expressed an opinion without actually having fought against them or tried them out.
Personally I would suggest one change to the Kiel characteristic. It should only be allowed if the UG is 2 elements wide. If it expands out then it should lose the Kiel characteristic IMO.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 11, 2019, 05:42:02 PM
I am amazed how many people have expressed an opinion without actually having fought against them or tried them out.
After how many years wargaming you can still say that :P ;) ;D
Quote
Personally I would suggest one change to the Kiel characteristic. It should only be allowed if the UG is 2 elements wide. If it expands out then it should lose the Kiel characteristic IMO.
Richard
Very good idea. Years ago we had to amend the FoG:R keil rules becauuse of people deploying wide - it was just very very silly.
Simon Hall make it so 8)
I fought against them only three days ago, with an almost unbelievable 12-12 mutual break (in the same combat roll yes)
Kiel is very scary but it's hard to stay in Kiel against a more numerical cavalry opponent. And if you do they will end up behind you as well.
Agree on the change though, 8 wide keil would be just very silly indeed.
and it's even harder to spell it properly without referring to somewhere off the Baltic Sea
I will make an alteration to Kiel to state that it only applied is a formation is 2 wide.
Makes sense and a minot tweak. Starting a new clarry stream to do so.
Simon
Does Keil also require minimum depth ?, a Tug at half strength ie 2BW wide x 2 base deep, essentially no difference for a 2 deep line
I don't think that would be a good idea. In MeG base losses also cover morale a keil recuded in depth would in all likelihood still be a deep formation, just one that has had its morale battered.
Already done and happy with it.
Even a single base has some depth in reality - 4 ranks of hoplites a bit of a standard.
So even 2 deep is good enough.
Si
Sensible I think to keep simple at 2 bases wide. If you open this can of worms you then can query the depth required for other bonuses such as shieldwall.
Yes having had a ponder of RJC's suggestions I agree it is best and nice and simple.
Si