Specifically this has come out of conversations about Medieval Burgundian mixed knight and coustillier/valet units and downgrading their quality.
The units in question may be half knights and half coustillier/valets - the former being Cavalry, Formed Loose, -/FArm, Charging Lancer, optional Dismountable; the latter the same but Protected. Knights are Superior, but from 142a half of those taken must be downgraded to Average, the coustillier/valets are Average.
These can dismount per list notes as "Knights and knights with coustilliers and valets dismount as Formed Close, Average, Fully Armoured, 2-H Cut & Crush." - a significant thing here is that there is no mention of Quality.
So the mixed units can be Superior knights and Average coustillier/valets or Average knights and Average coustillier valets for those downgraded from 1420. A question on the latter is that if the knight part of the unit is downgraded can the coustillier valet part also be downgraded i.e. to Poor (or, indeed, must it be given the bit in the general rules on lists that says "If any bases are downgraded all in the UG must be downgraded.")
My concern comes about the relative points cost of the mounted unit if it dismounts compared to what the dismounted unit would cost if bought.
Looking at the points if the knight + coustillier TUG is wholly Average the cost for 6 bases is 744 (including the optional Dismountable as I'm looking at this from the point of view of using them as infantry).
If the coustillier/valet part can be downgraded to Poor the TUG cost is 612.
The cost of a 6 base unit of Infantry, Formed Close, Average, FArm, 2HCC, Dismountable is 870 or 786 if you think the better comparison is without Dismountable.
Thus you can get the infantry unit at a discount of 126 or 42 points (with or without Dismountable) if the TUG is wholly Average, or at a discount of 258 or 174 if the coustillier/valet part can be downgraded to Poor.
Whilst for the wholly Average version you may feel that the discount is not a big deal depending on which comparison you feel is most appropriate, I would suggest that whichever way you are looking at it the discount if you can downgrade half the unit to Poor it is material and rather cheesy.
Related I think there are some dismounts in the Italian Wars set that have nothing in the notes about quality and so may also allow cheap infantry units to be fielded. A couple of examples are:
Later Swiss list - Italian & French knights with Dismountable are 100 points/base if downgraded to poor which is substantially cheaper than the Average troops they dismount as at 131 points/base.
Later Burgundian - Ordonnance gendarmes & coustillier units always dismount as Average regardless of mounted quality so again much cheaper than the infantry version
FWIW any omission on Quality on the dismounts in this list set is partly my fault as I proof-read them for Richard :(
We will need to add to the errata. Except when mentioned as an exception, if a UG is downgraded then the downgrade needs to apply to the dismounted version as well.
Richard
OK, looking through it appears that the Italian Wars lists have the "(Poor if downgraded to Poor)" part of the note on dismounting missing where what the troops dismount as is specified. Oops :-[
Noticed a couple of other things as well ...
Later Castillian - Sergeants in mixed units need Dismountable as the knights they are with have it.
The following has no note on what troops dismount as whilst having such troops - Later Castillian, Italian Wars Venetian, Pre-Cordoba Trastamara Spanish, Trastamara Spanish. And from House of Valois - Later 100YW English,
Medieval Burgundian in House of Valois obviously needs a note on dismounting when downgraded ;) Maybe also a clarification in the notes about whether the Coustilliers/Valets must also be downgraded if the knights are?
Nik, you reported me to the headmaster
Where is the errata kept?
https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1750.0
In the List Clarifications sub-forum ;D
Question on this.... I see the clarification now reads... "General note: Except where specifically mentioned in the lists, where quality is downgraded and troops dismount, the quality of the dismounted troops must be downgraded as well from that specified in the lists."
Can you give an example of which list specifically has a call out?
For example, In the Maximillian German List it says
"Welsche Garde and Gendarmes dismount as Formed Close, Average, Fully Armoured, 2-H Cut & Crush."
Does this mean it is specifically mentioned?
The Welsche Garde is Superior so if they would dismount based on this specific mention I would dismount as Average not Sup. At the same token, if this is not a specific call out, if I downgrade the Welsche Garde to Average, then I would dismount as poor based on it not specifically called out? Or if this is an example of a call out, then I would still dismount as Average.
I was able to find some lists with no mention of dismount so rules and the clarification applies. I also found lists that mentioned if downgraded xyzz applies, so wanted to make sure that this is an example of a specific call out.
Dan Jr