Having played a few virtual games recently, against the same opponent, I have noticed a trend developing as we have become more experienced with the rules. We are both using the downgrade option (rule 5 at the start of the army lists) more and more and it has got to the point whether I wonder if the option allows too much alteration.
It is one thing tinkering with one UG to fit into the points limit but I now find myself, every time I draw up a new army, toying with everything to achieve a min/max best army; history seems to have taken a back seat to gaming. For example when designing a Camillan Roman army recently I found myself considering sacrificing one 9-base legion to get eight 6-base SUGs of poor but experienced shooting javelinmen and when looking at a Parthian army considering downgrading the morale of all the horse archers in order to have more cataphracts.
Perhaps some sort of limit should be imposed to keep army feel correct? For example, no more than 50% of any one troop type &/or if quality is downgraded so must shooting skill?
This just represents the horse-trading that always goes on between commanders trying to get their "best mix" of forces from all those available
So for your examples:-
Quote from: AlecJH on April 16, 2021, 08:46:34 AM
For example when designing a Camillan Roman army recently I found myself considering sacrificing one 9-base legion to get eight 6-base SUGs of poor but experienced shooting javelinmen
OK you can keep the XX1X legion
but I get all the guys from the Sienna region: I know they are not very keen but they can all throw javelins.
AND
Quote from: AlecJH on April 16, 2021, 08:46:34 AM
Parthian army considering downgrading the morale of all the horse archers in order to have more cataphracts.
I'll take the guys from Suren who would rather be back at home
but you've got to give me the extra cataphracts from Adiabene
Beware on the downgrade. Skirmisher downgraded to poor are shot much easily by every other shooter and have a malus on their vmd.
Quantity has a quality of its own but you only got what you pay for.
Experience over the last five years would suggest to me that widespread downgrading doesn't work. If anything, people prefer quality troops.
With poor troops for example:
Skilled and experienced shooting at poor troops go up one colour on the shooting dice.
When skirmishing and running away, poor troops subtract one from the dice when working out the variable movement distance. The effect of this is that poor troops will have to run away more often than skirmishing and are more likely to get caught.
In combat there is +1 for each better level of quality difference.
Poor troops are 60% of the cost of average. With all other things being equal I would take 6 average troops over 10 poor troops.
Downgrading in the right circumstances is certainly a part of competition gaming. For historical scenarios, ignore the army lists and create your own armies. You will find that downgrading is justified for a lot of armies in a lot of circumstances (it is amazing how many Roman armies were destroyed, only for Rome to send another army, then another until they eventually won).
Richard
Quote from: Rino on April 16, 2021, 12:39:47 PM
Beware on the downgrade. Skirmisher downgraded to poor are shot much easily by every other shooter and have a malus on their vmd.
Quantity has a quality of its own but you only got what you pay for.
For future reference, (illogical though it may be) in English the opposite of "bonus" is "penalty", not "malus".
I hear what you are all saying and agree in principle, however, when fighting a Numidian army recently and finding that the 'Best Light Horse' has been downgraded to poor but remain skilled javelins I can't help but wonder if there is a bit too much leeway allowed.
Those numidians will shoot on green if vs average but it will be shot at on green by experienced shooters ..and if that shooter is bow and outrange your numidians there will be hell to pay ! Also chances of evading seem grim ... it is all a balance
A fairly poor choice of downgrade IMO.
Quotewhen fighting a Numidian army recently and finding that the 'Best Light Horse' has been downgraded to poor but remain skilled javelins
There is also and element on knowing what your opposing army is. So if you're facing Romans and then its a reasonable choice - game wise - but is a bit 'sharp practice'
I suspect if you didn't know what the opposing army is this downgrade is suicidal
Quote from: nikgaukroger on April 16, 2021, 05:13:51 PM
A fairly poor choice of downgrade IMO.
Did you not downgrade some sassanian skirmishers who had cantabrian ? ;D ;D
Quote from: RocketSix on April 16, 2021, 05:53:55 PM
Quotewhen fighting a Numidian army recently and finding that the 'Best Light Horse' has been downgraded to poor but remain skilled javelins
There is also and element on knowing what your opposing army is. So if you're facing Romans and then its a reasonable choice - game wise - but is a bit 'sharp practice'
I suspect if you didn't know what the opposing army is this downgrade is suicidal
Numidians do shoot at 2 MU ...if the romans have some velite shooting at 2 MU ..it might be a good test of rolling skulls 8)