We had a discussion on whether Tugs moving as a block can move at different speeds/distances within the block move and could not agree.
The rules says
"No files in the block may move further than their maximum move distance, and all
TuGs follow the same action, limited by the speed of the slowest if the move keeps
them in the same block throughout. In most cases this is obvious but for some moves
it takes a bit of thought"
This is the move we were discussing where two Fleet of foot Tugs move one 2BW the other just over 3BW but still keep side to side base edge with each other.
(https://lasercraftart.com/images/block%20move%2001b.jpg)
So
TuGs can vary there move distance within the Block as long as its not faster than the slowest TuGs move distance.
Or
TuGs cannot vary there move distance within the Block and move the same distance as the lowest/slowest moved TuG's distance.
Hi Geoff,
If you want to make a block move of A and B together you need to consider that A+B is acting as a single TUG with max speed the lowest of A and B.
In your example if A max speed is 2 then A + B max speed will be 2.
Units can form a block if they start with contiguous bases.
So if A and B move independently (one of 2 and the second of 3 as per your exemple) and finish their move still contiguous one to another they can still act as a block for the next round.
An interesting one !
My answer for a movement forward or backwars would be
QuoteTuGs cannot vary there move distance within the Block and move the same distance as the lowest/slowest moved TuG's distance.
But if A and B were drilled, and moved M11, did we not have somewhere an example where the front UG just turned and the second one turned and moved 1 MU to make a new block ?
I see no problem with the TUGs in a block move moving different distances as long as they are doing the same action, none move further than the distance of the slowest UG and that they start and end in at least partial edge contact. They must of course obey the other restrictions for a block move.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 10, 2021, 12:31:28 PM
I see no problem with the TUGs in a block move moving different distances as long as they are doing the same action, none move further than the distance of the slowest UG and that they start and end in at least partial edge contact. They must of course obey the other restrictions for a block move.
Richard
well yes, otherwise you cannot wheel in a blockmove
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 10, 2021, 12:31:28 PM
I see no problem with the TUGs in a block move moving different distances as long as they are doing the same action, none move further than the distance of the slowest UG and that they start and end in at least partial edge contact. They must of course obey the other restrictions for a block move.
Richard
I do not belief the requirement to end in partial edge contact is correct.
For example two 2x2 TUGs of mounted starting shoulder-to-shoulder may execute a turn 90 and then move 3BW as a block move: this will result in them no longer being in contact with each other as they are only 60mm deep when turned (there will be a 20mm gap between them). I know that this is intended functionality as Si has done this to me!
8)
Hi Stephen,
On reflection, I think you are correct. They certainly have to start in at least partial edge contact with each other.
The tutorial videos actually demonstrate that they don't have to finish in partial edge contact (thanks Bahdabum).
Richard
p.s. What Si may have done in the past is not in my experience always the best guidance!
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 10, 2021, 12:31:28 PM
I see no problem with the TUGs in a block move moving different distances as long as they are doing the same action, none move further than the distance of the slowest UG and that they start and end in at least partial edge contact. They must of course obey the other restrictions for a block move.
Richard
So for my understanding Richard, can you please confirm the following :
1. This means in a block wheel for example of close and loose cav, the latter can still move its max distance of 5 BW if on the outer side of the wheel, while the close cav remains under 4BW movement?
This makes sense as in real practise, (in contemporary army drill) the men at the outer wheel always have to move much faster to catch up with the 'pivot' man.
2. It is allowed during a block move to 'drop off' slower UGs (and/or SUGs ?) and even loose contact with the rest of the block, provided of course they all moved in the same direction ?
QuoteSo for my understanding Richard, can you please confirm the following :
1. This means in a block wheel for example of close and loose cav, the latter can still move its max distance of 5 BW if on the outer side of the wheel, while the close cav remains under 4BW movement?
This makes sense as in real practise, (in contemporary army drill) the men at the outer wheel always have to move much faster to catch up with the 'pivot' man.
Perhaps not as pg 106 3 second bullet " no files in the block may move further than their maximum move distance, and all Tugs follow the same action, limited by the speed of the slowest if the move keeps them in the same block throughout"! So does that means you must conform to the slowest speed ?
And comparing to modern drill is perhaps not accurate but who knows what we really know 8)
Simon's input might be asked to know his intend when he wrote the rules
Related to this - having checked the rule book - I can't see anything that says if you use a block move to do a wheel everything needs to wheel through the same angle. So if I wheel a block of, say, four TUGs I assume they can all wheel at different directions and (since that would put them out of contact) at different move distances.
Is there something I'm missing that would prevent this? Is it the intention?
Quote from: grahambriggs on April 26, 2021, 10:22:30 PM
Related to this - having checked the rule book - I can't see anything that says if you use a block move to do a wheel everything needs to wheel through the same angle. So if I wheel a block of, say, four TUGs I assume they can all wheel at different directions and (since that would put them out of contact) at different move distances.
This just all feels terribly, horribly wrong. If I have 2 UGs side-by-side and I do a "block" Turn 180° with Move, do you mean to say that one could move ahead and turn 180° and the other could immediately turn 180° and move? Insanity I say! Doesn't mean it's not legal, or that I won't take advantage of it if it's legal - but does that really fit into the spirit of a block move?
A problem with this I think is dealing with a block move involving a 90° turn which necessarily breaks up the block. It may be that in addressing that specific case, the rules opened the door to the "fireworks" block move where every UG does their own thing - as long as it sorta kinda can be explained as doing the same "action." But I can't imagine that a block move was intended to allow all the UGs do their own thing - wasn't it intended to allow multiple UGs do the same thing at a reduced cost? The trade off should be reduced freedom of action vs. reduced command cost. Even the original example seems to violate this spirit where different UGs move ahead different distances - it just feels to me like a cheesy exercise to get something for nothing via a loophole in the rule.
Whoops, gotta go. My wife reminded me I'm overdue for my next round of meds. :P
I think by applying the first line in the Block Move section sensibly you can knock different wheels on the head - which I think is clearly not the intention. "A block move is where you action several UGs together to all do the same thing" - I would certainly rule that different wheels would mean they are not doing the same thing. So yes, I would not see "wheeling" as being the "thing" before people mention it, the "thing" would be, for example, a 45 degree wheel to the left. IMO that is obviously the intention and, to repeat myself, would rule as such if asked.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on April 27, 2021, 07:59:28 AM
I think by applying the first line in the Block Move section sensibly you can knock different wheels on the head - which I think is clearly not the intention. "A block move is where you action several UGs together to all do the same thing" - I would certainly rule that different wheels would mean they are not doing the same thing. So yes, I would not see "wheeling" as being the "thing" before people mention it, the "thing" would be, for example, a 45 degree wheel to the left. IMO that is obviously the intention and, to repeat myself, would rule as such if asked.
I'm only doing this to flag a loophole that might be in the rules before it comes up in games. Unfortunately your explanation, while clearly fine for club games, is not likely to work in competition. Yes, it says "all do the same thing". But then what is meant by "thing"? The "thing" you can do in movement is defined on page 86 - "...to make a
prompted action...on the
prompted action table". So looking at the table on page 82 it tells me: "M3 Advance with Wheel". I would contend that as long as each UG in the block is doing an M3 move there is nothing to say they have to wheel by the same amount. In fact this interpretation - that they just need to all do the same prompted action, is supported by the last bullet of page 106 that refers to "...all TUGs follow the same action..."
Quote from: grahambriggs on April 27, 2021, 02:15:55 PM
Unfortunately your explanation, while clearly fine for club games, is not likely to work in competition.
Well it clearly will where I am making the call ;)
But your point is well made. It may even be being looked into ;D
Loophole in wording noted. And applauded as we want to tighten then always.
Answer in the wider stream. Which means no as you will see.
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on April 29, 2021, 06:11:02 AM
Loophole in wording noted. And applauded as we want to tighten then always.
Answer in the wider stream. Which means no as you will see.
Si
Thanks Simon
Thanks simon but what about the speed of Ugs in a wheel .;can different UGs move at different speed as Ambiorix asked ?
It is possible for the outer UG to move faster than an inner UG and for that inner UG still not go faster than it's own speed but the outer one can move quicker
Quote from: badhabum on April 29, 2021, 07:14:51 PM
Thanks simon but what about the speed of Ugs in a wheel .;can different UGs move at different speed as Ambiorix asked ?
It is possible for the outer UG to move faster than an inner UG and for that inner UG still not go faster than it's own speed but the outer one can move quicker
I think Simon made this clear, the block wheel as a block. So clearly a UG on the outside will move faster than the UG in the inside. But they must all wheel through the same angle, facing in the same direction.
Richard
OK but to my original question what would be the official response (I assume YES to 1 and NO to 2 ?) :
1. in a block wheel for example of close and loose cav, the latter can still move its max distance of 5 BW if on the outer side of the wheel, while the close cav remains under 4BW movement when both remaining aligned?
2. It is allowed during a block move to 'drop off' slower UGs (and/or SUGs ?) and even loose contact with the rest of the block, provided of course they all moved in the same direction ?
[/quote]
oops, sorry, didn't notice there was a second page to this post, so missed the responses.
I see 1. has been answered (YES), so quid the 'dropping off', is that allowed ?
Thx
Simon's response seems clear to me, you take the entire block as a rectangle and move them, so no, you can't drop off UGs.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 30, 2021, 06:48:25 AM
Simon's response seems clear to me, you take the entire block as a rectangle and move them, so no, you can't drop off UGs.
Richard
Droping is clear max speed is unclear
If my outer UG is loose cavalry it has a movement speed of 5 MU, next to it I have a close mounted that moves 4 MU . I make a wheel .
What is the max speed of the wheel knowing that if you move the outer loose UG 5 MU , the inner close UG will move 4 MU
So both do respect the max move limitation, are in the rectangle but os in modern drill ( and perhaps ancient ) the outer UG moves faster
So mays it tmove 5 MU/4MU from the outer UG ?
Quote from: badhabum on April 30, 2021, 08:20:40 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 30, 2021, 06:48:25 AM
Simon's response seems clear to me, you take the entire block as a rectangle and move them, so no, you can't drop off UGs.
Richard
Droping is clear max speed is unclear
If my outer UG is loose cavalry it has a movement speed of 5 MU, next to it I have a close mounted that moves 4 MU . I make a wheel .
What is the max speed of the wheel knowing that if you move the outer loose UG 5 MU , the inner close UG will move 4 MU
So both do respect the max move limitation, are in the rectangle but os in modern drill ( and perhaps ancient ) the outer UG moves faster
So mays it tmove 5 MU/4MU from the outer UG ?
so the block can move faster than the slowest UG in the block?
Try and you will be able to see that an outer UG could move 5 MU, stay in permanent contact with the UG near it, stay in the same rectangle but the inner UG moves 4 MU even less ;
So Ambiorix's question remain unanswered
From the OP
QuoteThe rules says
"No files in the block may move further than their maximum move distance, and all
TuGs follow the same action, limited by the speed of the slowest if the move keeps
them in the same block throughout.
So if the block wheels as a single entity then it is limited by the speed of the slowest.
Quote from: LawrenceG on May 01, 2021, 09:15:18 AM
From the OP
QuoteThe rules says
"No files in the block may move further than their maximum move distance, and all
TuGs follow the same action, limited by the speed of the slowest if the move keeps
them in the same block throughout.
So if the block wheels as a single entity then it is limited by the speed of the slowest.
No necessarily
The Ugs are limited by their max move distance
The move must be uniform, the same move in the same rectangle
You are limited by the speed of the slowest : what does that mean ? that you move at the speed of the slowest or that the slowest may not move more than it's maximum speed ?
When making a straight forward blok move it is easy
Try a pivot move
Put a 5 speed UG at the point you will move, put a slower UG as pivot , move the 5 MU and mesure the distance moved by the slower UG it is less than 3 MU so none didmore than the max distance, the speed was respected as the slowest UG did not go faster than it's max speed, the blok remained a blok during the whole move, it did the same action !
That is the point Ambiorix submitted !
A pivot is not a simple forward move as UGs will move different distances !
I would say keep it simple and and limit the speed based on the slowest for the whole move, but Ambiorix point of view has merits and I will have to be the referee for his games so what is now the right answer !
Badhabum and Lawrence G:
What Simon wrote is that the block moves at the speed of the slowest. Now I know that players (including myself and Simon himself in the past) have played a wheel as you have described with no UG exceeding their max movement distance, but some UGs exceeding the speed of the slowest UG in the block (by being further out).
However as Simon has written, (and pending any official clarification sheet) then the block should wheel at the speed of the slowest UG and no UG should exceed that move distance.
The problem is when players start acting like rules lawyers then you have to write the rules like law. Simon has many qualities but isn't very good at this one.
I hope to produce a sheet with examples for every block move (if only to stop me being pestered by questions when I umpire my next competition!).
Richard
Quote from: badhabum on May 01, 2021, 09:49:48 AMPut a 5 speed UG at the point you will move, put a slower UG as pivot , move the 5 MU and mesure the distance moved by the slower UG it is less than 3 MU so none didmore than the max distance, the speed was respected as the slowest UG did not go faster than it's max speed, the blok remained a blok during the whole move, it did the same action !
In that case, the move was limited by the 5 speed moving 5 MU, which means the move was limited by the speed of the fastest, not the speed of the slowest.
If the 3 speed moved 3 and the 5 speed moved 4.5, then the move would have been limited
by the speed of the slowest.
If the 5 speed is not allowed to move further than 3, then all TUGs are limited
to the speed of the slowest.
Rule writing is difficult.
FWIW I suspect that what is intended is:
1. No file may exceed its own max move distance.
2. M2, M3, M4, M5, M5, M10, M13 (also possibly C1, C2, C4, F2-4) the whole block must move as a rigid body.
3. M6 all UGs must advance the same distance. *
* prompts the questions: Does every UG contract by 1-2 BW, or does the block as a whole contract by 1-2 BW? If the latter, could a whole UG of width 2 bases contract to behind another UG?
I'm quite new to these rules but my first and lasting impression of this Block controversy is that the solution is in the name. It is a block move and therefore moves as a block at the speed moved by its slowest member unit. And a block is a block, not a sequence of units touching at the corner. This would be a simple and straight-forward solution to any uncertainty. But, as I say, I'm new to the rules.
For me as referee it is simple : max speed is the slowest makes it easy ( those are rules NOT an historical reenactment )
Quote from: badhabum on May 05, 2021, 04:31:33 PM
For me as referee it is simple : max speed is the slowest makes it easy ( those are rules NOT an historical reenactment )
i think this keeps it simple, no fuss, no discussion, nothing cheesy
Just to keep things clear and not mix everything :
When you make a blok moveall UGs must be in contact but not all UGs need to make the full move you may "drop" Ugs along the way ?
Second different but along the same lines : you drag a SK UG with your TUG . May you "drop" the SUG somewhere along the road ? but it will have moved
After consulting with Simon the following
In a C1 block move, withdrawing skirmishers, each SuG must move the same distance and direction and allow a UG to charge.
In a C2 block move, all UGs must charge in the same direction and have a valid charge target.
In a C4 countercharge or intercept move, all UGs must move the same direction and distance and must comply with all the other requirements.
In a M2 or M5 block move directly ahead all UGs must move the same distance ahead and cannot exceed the speed of the slowest UG.
In a M3 or M4 block move including a wheel, all UGs must wheel through the same angle and no UG can exceed its normal maximum distance.
In an M9 turn 90 block move the UGs may not necessarily end up in a block. All UGs must turn.
In an M10 block move all UGs must move the same distance after turning 180 and may not exceed their move distance after turning.
In a M11 block move including a turn 90 degrees and move, no UG can exceed its normal movement distance after turning - but UGs may move less than their normal distance. This may allow some or all of the UGs to reform as a block.
In M12, M13 block moves all UGs must move back the same distance.
In a M6, M7 or block move that involves contracting or expanding, all UGs must perform the action and must remain in a block. In effect this limits the action to two UGs.
In an M14 double move, the UGs must remain in a block at the end of the first block move.
In C3 or M1 block moves that allow UGs to redress ranks or stop forced charges, not all UGs have to perform the action. UGs can that don't perform the action remain stationary (but are still regarded as have made a prompted action).
In an F2, F3 or F4 block move to break off, all UGs must break off the same distance from the enemy.
In an F1 block move, control pursuit, all UGs must be reduced to the same distance.
Block moves cannot be used to recover wounds, MF1 and MF2 moves
Richard
Thank you and interesting answers for M3/M4 and M14 8)
thank you richard excellent answer
clear and precise
Quote from: lionheartrjc on May 31, 2021, 12:49:05 PM
After consulting with Simon the following
.....
In an M14 double move, the UGs must remain in a block at the end of the first block move.
.....
Richard
So regarding the M14 block move what is allowed in the second move? Is each UG allowed to do any green or white move and split off? Also in the second move are UGs still restricted to the speed of the slowest UG?
Quote from: AlecJH on June 03, 2021, 08:28:17 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on May 31, 2021, 12:49:05 PM
After consulting with Simon the following
.....
In an M14 double move, the UGs must remain in a block at the end of the first block move.
.....
Richard
So regarding the M14 block move what is allowed in the second move? Is each UG allowed to do any green or white move and split off? Also in the second move are UGs still restricted to the speed of the slowest UG?
The second move would still be a block move and so would follow the requirements of whichever move was selected.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on May 31, 2021, 12:49:05 PM
After consulting with Simon the following
In a C1 block move, withdrawing skirmishers, each SuG must move the same distance and direction and allow a UG to charge.
In a C2 block move, all UGs must charge in the same direction and have a valid charge target.
In a C4 countercharge or intercept move, all UGs must move the same direction and distance and must comply with all the other requirements.
In a M2 or M5 block move directly ahead all UGs must move the same distance ahead and cannot exceed the speed of the slowest UG.
In a M3 or M4 block move including a wheel, all UGs must wheel through the same angle and no UG can exceed its normal maximum distance.
In an M9 turn 90 block move the UGs may not necessarily end up in a block. All UGs must turn.
In an M10 block move all UGs must move the same distance after turning 180 and may not exceed their move distance after turning.
In a M11 block move including a turn 90 degrees and move, no UG can exceed its normal movement distance after turning - but UGs may move less than their normal distance. This may allow some or all of the UGs to reform as a block.
In M12, M13 block moves all UGs must move back the same distance.
In a M6, M7 or block move that involves contracting or expanding, all UGs must perform the action and must remain in a block. In effect this limits the action to two UGs.
In an M14 double move, the UGs must remain in a block at the end of the first block move.
In C3 or M1 block moves that allow UGs to redress ranks or stop forced charges, not all UGs have to perform the action. UGs can that don't perform the action remain stationary (but are still regarded as have made a prompted action).
In an F2, F3 or F4 block move to break off, all UGs must break off the same distance from the enemy.
In an F1 block move, control pursuit, all UGs must be reduced to the same distance.
Block moves cannot be used to recover wounds, MF1 and MF2 moves
Richard
Thanks, very helpful. It changes the game significantly for many, and at the very least changes one's interpretation of the rules. The different speeds allowed in a M3/M4 vs the 'slowest UG speed' in the M2/M5 for instance makes sense from a game play perspective but not if someone was reading the RAW.
The list you made RJC will need to go into Clarifications.
The game is great but it desperately needs a package of clear illustrations/examples to resolve the rule writing.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on May 31, 2021, 12:49:05 PM
After consulting with Simon the following
In a C1 block move, withdrawing skirmishers, each SuG must move the same distance and direction and allow a UG to charge.
In a C2 block move, all UGs must charge in the same direction and have a valid charge target.
In a C4 countercharge or intercept move, all UGs must move the same direction and distance and must comply with all the other requirements.
In a M2 or M5 block move directly ahead all UGs must move the same distance ahead and cannot exceed the speed of the slowest UG.
In a M3 or M4 block move including a wheel, all UGs must wheel through the same angle and no UG can exceed its normal maximum distance.
In an M9 turn 90 block move the UGs may not necessarily end up in a block. All UGs must turn.
In an M10 block move all UGs must move the same distance after turning 180 and may not exceed their move distance after turning.
In a M11 block move including a turn 90 degrees and move, no UG can exceed its normal movement distance after turning - but UGs may move less than their normal distance. This may allow some or all of the UGs to reform as a block.
In M12, M13 block moves all UGs must move back the same distance.
In a M6, M7 or block move that involves contracting or expanding, all UGs must perform the action and must remain in a block. In effect this limits the action to two UGs.
In an M14 double move, the UGs must remain in a block at the end of the first block move.
In C3 or M1 block moves that allow UGs to redress ranks or stop forced charges, not all UGs have to perform the action. UGs can that don't perform the action remain stationary (but are still regarded as have made a prompted action).
In an F2, F3 or F4 block move to break off, all UGs must break off the same distance from the enemy.
In an F1 block move, control pursuit, all UGs must be reduced to the same distance.
Block moves cannot be used to recover wounds, MF1 and MF2 moves
Richard
Could this be published on the official clarifications? might be useful
We're way ahead of you - website update coming soon ;D