I played a game recently which involved a lot of shooting in and out of woods. The rules for when being shot at are clear - a base has to be completely in to benefit from cover, but we had issues regarding how SUGs are affected when shooting when they were partly in and partly out of the woods terrain. For example:
1. How is a three deep SUG affected when the first rank is completely out, the second rank partly out but the third rank completely in the wood? Can the second & third ranks shoot? Also does the target get cover?
2. If a three-deep SUG file is shooting when all three bases are half in a wood running through one side of the file can the file shoot three deep? Also does the target get cover or does the file have to be completely inside, as for close combat, for the shooting to be affected?
Thank you in advance for any replies.
Covered on the terrain sheet. SUGs in woods can only shoot in 2 ranks, TuGs in 1 rank. Any file which has bases partially or wholly in the wood is treated as being in the wood.
Richard
As for cover - see p. 156, D2&4. If the front edge of the shooting file is out of the woods then the target does not get cover. Cover is determined by the lines drawn from the front corners of the shooting file to the target, and if those lines don't go through the woods then the target can't claim cover.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 04, 2021, 11:17:50 AM
Covered on the terrain sheet. SUGs in woods can only shoot in 2 ranks, TuGs in 1 rank. Any file which has bases partially or wholly in the wood is treated as being in the wood.
Richard
That is the simple case but what about a UG with all but one rank outside the woods ? 1 or 2 ranks in open terrain, one in the woods
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That is the simple case but what about a UG with all but one rank outside the woods ? 1 or 2 ranks in open terrain, one in the woods
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For movement the rules specify any part of the UG in the terrain causes the slowing effect.
For combat the rules specify the edge facing the front edge of the enemy file determines the terrain effect for combat.
For shooting I cannot find the rules specifying anything so I would welcome a clarification. My instinct is to treat it as for combat, i.e. it is where the front edge of the file is that determines the terrain effect.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 06, 2021, 12:46:09 PM
For shooting I cannot find the rules specifying anything so I would welcome a clarification. My instinct is to treat it as for combat, i.e. it is where the front edge of the file is that determines the terrain effect.
I agree a clarification would be useful. In the meantime, I'm inclined to be guided by the glossary definitions for "Affected":
Quote
... If a rear rank it can only support if its front edge is not even partially in the terrain.
Given the example where a unit is partially in the forest (can only fight/shoot 1 rank), the front edge of front rank being out of the forest, but rear ranks having front edges in the forest, I would think a common sense approach would be to allow that unit to shoot two ranks: one for front rank out of the forest, and then one (and only one) rank in the forest. TuGs would shoot at full effect but SuGs would be downgraded.
In any case, it would be best if Simon could give a definitive clarification.
You can have only one shooting dice per file.
If the rear ranks are still in the forest then your dice color downgrade.
If the front rank is outside then the cover doesn't apply anymore.
Why so many questions , where is the cheese?
Quote from: Rino on April 06, 2021, 10:00:03 PM
You can have only one shooting dice per file.
If the rear ranks are still in the forest then your dice color downgrade.
If the front rank is outside then the cover doesn't apply anymore.
Why so many questions , where is the cheese?
ask the mouse about the cheese not us ;)
PUNCH
Quote from: Rino on April 06, 2021, 10:00:03 PM
You can have only one shooting dice per file.
If the rear ranks are still in the forest then your dice color downgrade.
If the front rank is outside then the cover doesn't apply anymore.
Why so many questions , where is the cheese?
Where in the rules did you find that if a rear rank is in the woods/forest you downgrade the shooting ?
Terrain Sheet
I am a little uncertain on this following a similar debate we had on the forum last year about an identical situation but as it related to close combat rather than shooting. As I recall Simon made the point that if for example a pike unit was halfway out of difficult terrain then all of its ranks could count there support factors. The justification was that the figures we mount our figures are on are much deeper than the actual unit would be in practice. It was for this reason that he took the fron base edge to bethe determining factor as to whether or not the unit actually in the terrain.
If my recollection of the debate is correct then it seems strange to me that we are taking a different approach with shooters. If a similar logic is to be applied then only two situations can apply.
1. The front base edge is in terrain and therefore cover applies but shooting factors are reduced.
or
2 The front base edge is outside so no cover applies and also shooting is not penalised.
Quote from: marshalney2000 on April 07, 2021, 11:27:17 AM
I am a little uncertain on this following a similar debate we had on the forum last year about an identical situation but as it related to close combat rather than shooting. As I recall Simon made the point that if for example a pike unit was halfway out of difficult terrain then all of its ranks could count there support factors. The justification was that the figures we mount our figures are on are much deeper than the actual unit would be in practice. It was for this reason that he took the fron base edge to bethe determining factor as to whether or not the unit actually in the terrain.
If my recollection of the debate is correct then it seems strange to me that we are taking a different approach with shooters. If a similar logic is to be applied then only two situations can apply.
1. The front base edge is in terrain and therefore cover applies but shooting factors are reduced.
or
2 The front base edge is outside so no cover applies and also shooting is not penalised.
Yes, combat is clear it is only the edge fighting (not necessariliy the front edge if you are hit in flank or rear) that counts.
For movement it is any part of any base that affects the entire UG.
For shooting it needs clarification.
Richard
To return to my current personal obsession, the definition of "affected":
Quote
Affected (by terrain): Troops whose fighting is impaired by being in terrain. If a rear rank it can only support if its front edge is not even partially in the terrain.
I take it that for this definition, "front edge" refers
not to the front edge of the rear rank itself but to the front edge of the file it is part of?
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 07, 2021, 10:03:17 AM
Terrain Sheet
Found it so funny enough if a shooty UG is in woods, not only will it sees a downgrade of shooting due to lack of ranks but also one more for shooting from woods and so render it near useless ( double downgrade is that intended ? )
Just back so it is correct out of some terrain you downgrade twice ?
Quote from: badhabum on April 13, 2021, 02:22:10 PM
Just back so it is correct out of some terrain you downgrade twice ?
No - there is no downgrade for shooting from a wood. The only limitation is the number of ranks that can shoot.
There is a downgrade for shooting at troops in cover. This makes two UGs shooting at each other inside a wood very ineffectual. This might be where you were getting confused.
So, shooting from a wood into the open is in effect one downgrade. Shooting from the open into a wood is in effect one downgrade. Shooting from a wood at a UG in the wood is in effect two downgrades. At that point you might as well charge...
Bear in mind also that the target must be visible (you cannot shoot at things you can't see!).
Richard
I think what badhabum is saying is that when you shoot from a wood at a target anywhere - the target could be in the open, could be in the woods - you get two downgrades: one for shooting at reduced ranks, and one for the target claiming cover.
Still awaiting an answer as to what constitutes a unit being out of a wood. Is it like close combat in that only the front rank needs to be.
Quote from: FrancisSmall on April 13, 2021, 04:29:25 PM
I think what badhabum is saying is that when you shoot from a wood at a target anywhere - the target could be in the open, could be in the woods - you get two downgrades: one for shooting at reduced ranks, and one for the target claiming cover.
No. Only if you are shooting through the wood can the target claim cover. If the front rank edge is not inside the wood then there is no second downgrade as you are not shooting through the wood. This is my point, if any bit of the ranks are in the wood I would say one downgrade applies. If the front edge is inside the wood then two downgrades will apply. As pointed out, shooting when in woods is going to be pretty useless and if you have any sort of advantage, charging is probably your best bet.
Richard
In fact the exact wording on the QRS is : orchards - for exemple - /cover/ any bases shot at when fully withi; or any target shot at FROM or through terrain .
The same terrain limits the number of ranks that may shoot
Shooting FROM is an added effect, hence the duble downgrade
So it might need attention as not all terrain hace that effect . Vineyards for exemple ldo give cover if fully in terrain and has no effect on ranks or shooting from ..so the choice of terrain will be interesting indeed an sorry if my explanations are not always to the point, you know thinking what you mean and writing it may sometimes be different .
Maybe we need a definition of "from" in the glossary. :P At this point I am certain that any attempt I would make would be wrong!
Coming back with shooting out of terrain:
A SUG is in a forest so shooting is innefective ( only one rank may shoot ) now what happens if the SUG has one rank oustide the forest and 2 ranks inside ?
- Is the firing innefective
_ doe sit shoot with 2 ranks one in the forest the other outide in the open ?
Covered in the clarries IIRC.
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 13, 2021, 02:33:36 PM
Bear in mind also that the target must be visible (you cannot shoot at things you can't see!).
Richard
I thought this as well but it was politely pointed out to me at Cross and Crescent that this is not the case: see Pg 116 9.4.A:2
Quote from: steads on October 05, 2021, 11:58:20 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 13, 2021, 02:33:36 PM
Bear in mind also that the target must be visible (you cannot shoot at things you can't see!).
Richard
I thought this as well but it was politely pointed out to me at Cross and Crescent that this is not the case: see Pg 116 9.4.A:2
That's just for charges isn't it and not shooting?
Sorry misread something or conflated two conversations :o: Yes this only applies to charges
Quote from: Francis Small on April 14, 2021, 04:19:21 PM
Maybe we need a definition of "from" in the glossary. :P At this point I am certain that any attempt I would make would be wrong!
Hy
I would like to come bak to part of this discussion as we had part of an answer that is in the clarries but there is still a missing point : SHOOTING "FROM" a cover
The terrain table stipulates for Orchards,woods, Forest,, Towns and Villages that a TUG inside those terrains have cover but also if as target they are shot at FROM those terrains or through. While through is pretty straightforward, the FROM is sometimes problematical .
My understanding is that if I have a firing unit in an orchard, all ranks may shoot but the "target" will be considered in cover as it is shot at from an orchard. If the firing unit is in a wood, not only will it shoot with less ranks but also give cover to the target ..
So what is it to be ( next tournament, next week-end ) 8)
Quote from: badhabum on August 29, 2022, 10:34:40 AM
Hy
I would like to come bak to part of this discussion as we had part of an answer that is in the clarries but there is still a missing point : SHOOTING "FROM" a cover
The terrain table stipulates for Orchards,woods, Forest,, Towns and Villages that a TUG inside those terrains have cover but also if as target they are shot at FROM those terrains or through. While through is pretty straightforward, the FROM is sometimes problematical .
My understanding is that if I have a firing unit in an orchard, all ranks may shoot but the "target" will be considered in cover as it is shot at from an orchard. If the firing unit is in a wood, not only will it shoot with less ranks but also give cover to the target ..
So what is it to be ( next tournament, next week-end ) 8)
Cover for any bases shot at when fully within.
Cover for any target shot at from the terrain. - This means the base front edge (this was clarified to be the front edge not the whole base) is at least partially in the terrain.
Cover for any target shat at through the terrain. This means that in drawing a line from the front corners to some part of the base being targeted, it goes through the terrain.
So take two Poor, Experienced, Unprotected TuGs with Bw, 2 ranks deep shooting at each other. In the open they both shoot at each other with YELLOW dice.
If they are both within an orchard, they will both count as in cover - shooting at each other with GREEN dice.
If they are both within woods, they both shoot at each other 1 rank deep as well as counting cover - shooting at each other with WHITE dice.
If A is within the orchard and B is in the open (within 3BW), they both count cover (A is full within, B has been shot at from the terrain) - shooting at each other with GREEN dice.
If A is within the wood and B is in the open (within 2BW), they both count cover but B can shoot with 2 ranks - A shoots with WHITE dice, B shoots with GREEN dice.
If A and B are both in the open but their shooting path is through the corner of the order - they both count cover - shooting at each other with GREEN dice.
I am unclear why any of this is problematical, but I hope my examples has resolved the problem.
Richard
Thank you
It just seemed a bit strange for the shooting UG in cover to have worse colours than the target but so now I am very sure
Thank you
Quote from: lionheartrjc on August 29, 2022, 11:04:02 AM
I am unclear why any of this is problematical, but I hope my examples has resolved the problem.
Speaking for myself only here: I never found the rules unclear on this...but the outcomes of those rules were sufficiently counterintuitive to me that I always wondered if I was missing something.
Thank you for spelling it out so clearly— now I can stop second-guessing myself on this! : )
Quote from: Doomsmile on August 31, 2022, 09:32:29 PM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on August 29, 2022, 11:04:02 AM
I am unclear why any of this is problematical, but I hope my examples has resolved the problem.
Speaking for myself only here: I never found the rules unclear on this...but the outcomes of those rules were sufficiently counterintuitive to me that I always wondered if I was missing something.
Thank you for spelling it out so clearly— now I can stop second-guessing myself on this! : )
From experience, when you write a "rule" a "process" , a "note" you must sometimes express the same idea twice in a different manner with lots of clear exemples of difficult cases as people who read it must understand the idea, the intend and that is what I must do everyday .
It is not easy,
Also, many of us are not native English so doubt may arrise from misunderstandings or misinterpretation hence detailed questions
Quote from: lionheartrjc on April 06, 2021, 12:46:09 PM
That is the simple case but what about a UG with all but one rank outside the woods ? 1 or 2 ranks in open terrain, one in the woods
[/quote]
For movement the rules specify any part of the UG in the terrain causes the slowing effect.
For combat the rules specify the edge facing the front edge of the enemy file determines the terrain effect for combat.
For shooting I cannot find the rules specifying anything so I would welcome a clarification. My instinct is to treat it as for combat, i.e. it is where the front edge of the file is that determines the terrain effect.
Richard
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Indeed clarification as per combay is right.
By the way , shooting out of terrain is already covered in the clarries as I showed Roger ;D