Two units are engaged in melee. My other unit walks past and ends in side to side contact, two of my stands (one file, two deep) in contact with two stands of the enemy.
How is that resolved?
And am I now in combat and therefore unable to move?
if they are side to side then there is an overlap support, front base only with depending on the weapon bonuses for the supporting rear rank, with a minus 1 dice color for being in support only.
If you are in edge to edge contact only, then you may form an overlap.
In the movement phase the provisions of 9.2M (page 132) apply. Alternatively the UG can be moved away if has not already been engaged.
Richard
Thanks, I had played that previously but then somehow came to the conclusion after reading the combat section that you could fight to your left/right as a normal file.
I will have another read when time allows and see if I can figure out where it was confusing.
Just to be clear, if you fight as a overlap, are you classed as engaged and therefore cannot walk away ?
Quote from: Kokor Hekkus on July 21, 2020, 09:37:34 AM
Just to be clear, if you fight as a overlap, are you classed as engaged and therefore cannot walk away ?
My initial reaction was no, you could walk away.
On reading closer....
Supporting files are engaged bases. However 9.5 H (page 145) only talks about moves "when in combat", but 9.5 I refers to Supporting files "in Combat". So the way I read it, they cannot walk away.
If you are in edge-to-edge contact but NOT a supporting file then you can walk away.
Makes sense, you don't walk away from a fight, but you might walk away if you get close to a fight but there is another threat.
Richard
I would note that on the QRS the "M" moves are labelled "Movement Phase Unless if in Frontal Combat" which would suggest that an UG which is only a supporting file can walk away.
I wonder if this question leads onto whether a supporting file can run away/skirmish ...
Good point, I hadn't picked up on the labelling of the M moves so perhaps my initial instinct was correct.
I notice that SuGs charged by TuGs explicitly cannot run away if they are "in combat". However the rules don't seem to mention that other UGs cannot run away if they are "in combat". I think that this is an omission, but would welcome a clarification from Simon.
All this just shows how tricky it is to write rules!
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on July 21, 2020, 06:31:29 PM
Good point, I hadn't picked up on the labelling of the M moves so perhaps my initial instinct was correct.
Had a bit of a trawl through and found these other bits that may apply:
P214 - combat is defined as a contiguous set of files who are fighting.
P219 - a supporting file is "
next to" a file that is fighting; implies that a supporting file is not fighting.
p215 - Engaged bases includes supporting files. However, on page 146 I.1 refers to a supporting file as a file not engaged in a fight but its neighbour is.
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I notice that SuGs charged by TuGs explicitly cannot run away if they are "in combat".
I noticed that (page 126 I take it) but it is actually an exception to when a SuG
must run away or skirmish which is not quite the same thing IMO.
Quote
However the rules don't seem to mention that other UGs cannot run away if they are "in combat". I think that this is an omission, but would welcome a clarification from Simon.
Glad you mentioned that, I was wondering about it and was hoping I'd missed something obvious :-[
Quote
All this just shows how tricky it is to write rules!
Richard
Indeed; and to proof read them ...
It would be nice if it could be explained by Simon so as to know the intend !
If SUG's are engaged as supporting file, my opinon is they cannot run away . Nik wrote it must run away but why should it be an exeption ? If a SUG charges another unit, be it another SUG or weakened TUG , and is charged by a TUG, it may not evade and if cought it is destroyed ...so wgy would an engaged SUG be able to evade .
So all this should be made clear !
Also the part if in support may you move away ? I know you are subject to forced charges which might be up to 3 MU for some units ...but if engaged what ?
Quote from: badhabum on July 21, 2020, 07:55:27 PM
Nik wrote it must run away but why should it be an exeption ?
I don't believe I have written anything that definitive on this topic.
Good point, I hadn't picked up on the labelling of the M moves so perhaps my initial instinct was correct.
I notice that SuGs charged by TuGs explicitly cannot run away if they are "in combat". However the rules don't seem to mention that other UGs cannot run away if they are "in combat". I think that this is an omission, but would welcome a clarification from Simon.
All this just shows how tricky it is to write rules!
Richard (http://good%20point,%20i%20hadn't%20picked%20up%20on%20the%20labelling%20of%20the%20M%20moves%20so%20perhaps%20my%20initial%20instinct%20was%20correct. %20%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3EI%20notice%20that%20SuGs%20charged%20by%20TuGs%20explicitly%20cannot%20run%20away%20if%20they%20are%20"in%20combat". %20However%20the%20rules%20don't%20seem%20to%20mention%20that%20other%20UGs%20cannot%20run%20away%20if%20they%20are%20"in%20combat". %20I%20think%20that%20this%20is%20an%20omission,%20but%20would%20welcome%20a%20clarification%20from%20Simon.%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3EAll%20this%20just%20shows%20how%20tricky%20it%20is%20to%20write%20rules! %20%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3ERichard)
I'll second that. One word can change everything ... ah the details needed or the comp pro. So this may well take an iteration or two and I will add one if need be. Also want minimum errata if we can.
A little pressed for time today so I may not pick up the points 1 by 1 but here is my version. At least subject to you all finding flaws in the above after which I will need a carry. I can add them to common questions anyway.
The reason for the M move comment is to limit those in frontal combat to only MF1 and MF2 moves. As now fully kept busy by enemy who are rolling a dice against them.
Frontal Combat is defined in the glossary as having an enemy base fighting against you with its front edge. So a corner to corner supporting file is not in frontal combat with enemy. i.e. is not being kept fully busy by enemy.
Engaged bases are those contributing to a fight as ranks or supporting files etc. and may not be moved around with MF moves therefore.
Combat is a contiguous set of files involved in the same fight. And is there to define the boundary around a combat for selection of the order of these. Such boundary therefore encompasses any supporting files.
Thus ..
Supporting files are "in combat", so SuGs charged by TuGs do not have to run away or skirmish if charged by a TuG. It says must not may. 1.3 then gives them the option to do so if cavalry or Camelry, but not if LF. A supporting file is i not frontal combat it is able to use all the M moves. and can therefore move away from the position.
So Dave's original post is as follows: 1) they fight in combat as a supporting file but are not in frontal combat yet, 2) if the enemy use an MF1 to face them of they then are and are stuck, 3) otherwise they could move away.
I think .... so far ....
Si
Quote from: nikgaukroger on July 21, 2020, 08:22:03 PM
Quote from: badhabum on July 21, 2020, 07:55:27 PM
Nik wrote it must run away but why should it be an exeption ?
I don't believe I have written anything that definitive on this topic.
Sorry my fault
"So Dave's original post"
>Just wondering as twice Simon has referred to me as Dave, not that it's a bad name or anything all we all know at least one Dave, right?
>And of course there's hello Dave from the league, but yeah.. my name isn't Dave..
If you are not Dave then presumably your name is Rodney.
Quote from: stuuk on July 22, 2020, 08:15:35 PM
"So Dave's original post"
>Just wondering as twice Simon has referred to me as Dave, not that it's a bad name or anything all we all know at least one Dave, right?
>And of course there's hello Dave from the league, but yeah.. my name isn't Dave..
No idea why I did that Stuuk. ;D
Just came back to this as I downloaded the errata and saw the thing about not being engaged if it's not frontal.
I did re-read the combat section about fihting to the side but I still can't make it work out.
If two pike blocks walk past one another, neither of them engaged to the front then the combat section seems to say they can fight with one die per depth of the file.
So for example a 4-deep file standing next to a 4-deep file with no frontal contact would roll 4 dice.
That is of course mental bearing in mind how it woudl work to the front, but I do not see in the rules anywhere telling me that isn't how it works.
If you are in side edge to side edge contact then there is no combat.
During the movement phase, either player can make a prompted action (M9) to turn 90 degrees and initiate the contact. The other player can then respond with an MF2 action to turn bases in contact 90 degrees (if they don't they will count as being contacted in the flank).
Hopefully that makes it clear.
Sorry non-Dave. ;) ;D.
Henceforth Stuuk only.
All these plus de nom are confusing .....
Si
"If you are in side edge to side edge contact then there is no combat."
That is indeed very clear - where does it say this?
Thanks, Dave.
Well as M 2.2 on page 132 says that where UGs are in side edge to side edge contact an M9 may be used to initiate combat it seems to me to be pretty obvious that there is no combat before such a move is made otherwise you wouldn't need to make the move to initiate combat.
Quote from: stuuk on October 08, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
"If you are in side edge to side edge contact then there is no combat."
That is indeed very clear - where does it say this?
Thanks, Dave.
You can only fight edge to edge as a supporting file.
So only then would there be combat.
The rules tell you what dice to roll.
There are no other dice ....
It what is says you do and can do, not what you don't, or it would be Avery very long book.
Si
Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 08, 2020, 08:29:00 PM
Well as M 2.2 on page 132 says that where UGs are in side edge to side edge contact an M9 may be used to initiate combat it seems to me to be pretty obvious that there is no combat before such a move is made otherwise you wouldn't need to make the move to initiate combat.
I agree that rule does the job well enough when there is not a combat already. But I did not find it when I needed it hence the query.
We had not played for some time and god only knows what we did - i think we had some kind of bizarre flank vs flank combat which didn't look right, feel right, or resolve properly.
Quote from: stuuk on October 09, 2020, 10:54:58 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 08, 2020, 08:29:00 PM
Well as M 2.2 on page 132 says that where UGs are in side edge to side edge contact an M9 may be used to initiate combat it seems to me to be pretty obvious that there is no combat before such a move is made otherwise you wouldn't need to make the move to initiate combat.
I agree that rule does the job well enough when there is not a combat already. But I did not find it when I needed it hence the query.
We had not played for some time and god only knows what we did - i think we had some kind of bizarre flank vs flank combat which didn't look right, feel right, or resolve properly.
Perhaps it would benefit from a "this is not a fight" diagram in the combat section. I'll store future.
But all combat is "roll a dice per file against frontal opposition, adding supporting files if they exist". In that scenario there are no files. If you hit a flank you are a file and they are frontal opposition, front to front is obvious, side to side both files have no frontal opposition so no dice. I'll at it to the Q&A.
Si