Is the section on Keil on P211 missing something? It doesn't actually seem to say what rules effect keil has.
Martin
He's right you know. Should be 3 points in the description but one has gone AWOL.
From the Characteristics PDF it should be:
Quote
TuGs with keil characteristic are adept at protecting and fighting to flank when in large formations - Swiss and Landsknechts being the primary exponents in this period.
1. A keil must begin as 8 or 12 bases as specified in their army lists and must be 2 files wide if an initial 8 ,or 2 or 3 files wide if an initial 12.
2. A keil fight better to its flanks than other TuGs. Bases fight to flank as if they were turned to face, but only 1 rank deep (therefore gaining no rank factors but negating any +s to the enemy for a flank charge or flank melee).
3. Rear charges, however, are just as devastating against keil as other troops.
I have already provided this omission, and a few similar things, to Simon so he is aware.
Bases fight to flank as if they were turned to face, but only 1 rank deep (therefore gaining no rank factors but negating any +s to the enemy for a flank charge or flank melee).
That is the rule effect.
S
Thanks gents. My new Italian Wars army is pleased.
Martin
Ah, a fellow sucker drawn to the Swiss. Beautiful to look at and possessed of a great history - but difficult to win with because of its minuscule size. However, I'd rather try to win with the small army than downgrade everything - that would just not be a Swiss Army in my view.
Perhaps others might have tricks and tips for playing Swiss?
They cause some serious headaches to play against.
Keep the rears safe and they can be the Mortem et Gloriam equivalent of a Dwarven death roller!
Si
I've being running Papal States and Trastamara Spanish. Not as small as the Swiss but not big either. I tend to find they work well if you hit them hard, fast and on a narrow front.
Martin
I've no idea what a dwarven death roller is but it sounds intimidating.
As for protecting the rear - well yes of course but that is exactly the problem with a tiny army that has to go forward to win.
Well it has to have a problem somewhere...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1024136-Dwarf%20Giants%2C%20Dwarves%2C%20Death%20Roller.html (https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1024136-Dwarf%20Giants%2C%20Dwarves%2C%20Death%20Roller.html)
Drwarven death roller comes from the GW game Bloodbowl - which is by a long way my favourite GW game. Very unpleasant from the front!!
Back to the keil :
The flank "fights" as if one rank deep and has no bonuses that is simple
There is no flank charge bonus that is simple
But do CL or mounted DC / LS get their factors as the "flank" is considered steady foot with one rank pike
And if the keil is fighting to the front does it fight back with for exemple the 4rth rank or is it just for computing the odds so the dice colour ?
Quote from: badhabum on September 08, 2021, 07:29:40 PM
Back to the keil :
The flank "fights" as if one rank deep and has no bonuses that is simple
There is no flank charge bonus that is simple
But do CL or mounted DC / LS get their factors as the "flank" is considered steady foot with one rank pike
And if the keil is fighting to the front does it fight back with for exemple the 4rth rank or is it just for computing the odds so the dice colour ?
Point 2 in the rules (see earlier in this thread) for Keils. The base is fighting as if it has turned to face, therefore CL, mounted DC/LSP do not get their bonus. The file fighting to the front cannot count any ranks that have been contacted in the flank or those behind it.
So if a Keil file is charged by 2 files of CL and stands to receive. One hits the front, the other hits the 2nd rank flank (and would have been a valid flank charge). My view if I have understood things correctly, is that neither the pike facing to front nor the pike in the 2nd rank will count any factor for weapon. Neither will the CL cavalry. Assuming everything else is equal, they will be on green dice.
If the CL charging into the flank wasn't charging from a valid flank charge position, then the normal rules would apply and both combats would be treated as frontal charges. The pike hit in the flank could include any files to its rear in calculating the combat claims.
Richard
For completeness it is worth noting that per page 151 that a base that can provide rank benefits has the choice to be used for rank support or to fight to flank/rear. Although presumably if not choosing to fight to flank they would not count as if turned and so the enemy would get their full claims including the flank attack.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 08, 2021, 08:54:45 PM
For completeness it is worth noting that per page 151 that a base that can provide rank benefits has the choice to be used for rank support or to fight to flank/rear. Although presumably if not choosing to fight to flank they would not count as if turned and so the enemy would get their full claims including the flank attack.
if front rank of pike is fighting frontally, 2nd rank , using keil rule, is classed as fighting frontally to the flank charging cavalry, do ranks 3 and 4 still count as supporting for the front rank? diagram on p142 suggests not but sometimes they arent always in line with the printed word else where :)
Quote from: tarnowski1 on September 08, 2021, 09:31:32 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 08, 2021, 08:54:45 PM
For completeness it is worth noting that per page 151 that a base that can provide rank benefits has the choice to be used for rank support or to fight to flank/rear. Although presumably if not choosing to fight to flank they would not count as if turned and so the enemy would get their full claims including the flank attack.
if front rank of pike is fighting frontally, 2nd rank , using keil rule, is classed as fighting frontally to the flank charging cavalry, do ranks 3 and 4 still count as supporting for the front rank? diagram on p142 suggests not but sometimes they arent always in line with the printed word else where :)
I would say not as the file is "disrupted" so hard choices might have to be made but I am not the referee
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 08, 2021, 08:54:45 PM
For completeness it is worth noting that per page 151 that a base that can provide rank benefits has the choice to be used for rank support or to fight to flank/rear. Although presumably if not choosing to fight to flank they would not count as if turned and so the enemy would get their full claims including the flank attack.
That might need to be clarified as it makes a difference : flank attack or not ..
Actually, I think it is blindingly obvious that if you are not fighting to the flank you do not count as having turned due to the wording.
I was unnecessarily cautious with what I wrote ;D
As a Swiss player, I agree - I do not think further explanation is required.
They fight as if turned so do not need to turn but what if they already fight frontally ?
To me, poor foreigner not english native speaker, fight is fight...
They do not need to turn to fight but what if they do not fight to the flank and already fight( is engaged ) to the front ? That is my question as a file cannot fight twice in 2 directions ?
A) Do we consider for factors computing only that one of the bases , the one attacked is "facing" the attacker and so we compute the odds ( dice colours )
B ) the keil makes a choice between front and flank ?
If contacted on more than one edge, you fight once for each contact. The file can only roll the dice to inflict damage once. So the owning player will choose whether to fight on a particular edge or not. The risk is that if you choose not to fight and your base is removed, you don't get to fight.
This is different from when two files are in contact with the same edge of your file. In that situation the owning player chooses which of the files will fight (the other might be a supporting file).
Richard
Thank you
From the Characteristics PDF it should be:
Quote
TuGs with keil characteristic are adept at protecting and fighting to flank when in large formations - Swiss and Landsknechts being the primary exponents in this period.
1. A keil must begin as 8 or 12 bases as specified in their army lists and must be 2 files wide if an initial 8 ,or 2 or 3 files wide if an initial 12.
2. A keil fight better to its flanks than other TuGs. Bases fight to flank as if they were turned to face, but only 1 rank deep (therefore gaining no rank factors but negating any +s to the enemy for a flank charge or flank melee).
3. Rear charges, however, are just as devastating against keil as other troops.
Question : Who is permitted to use keils in blocks of 8 bases - the army lists specify 12 bases for units with keil characteristic.
At present all lists specifying Keil specify TuGs of 12. However the characteristic gives us flexibility if we want to change that in future.
Richard
As a complete novice I am having difficulty with the definition of a rear charge. P121 to p123 gives lots of diagrams and helpful words that explain a flank charge but I can see nothing on what constitutes a rear charge. I am guessing it cannot be as simple as reversing the direction the troops receiving and front becomes rear as that would make a lot of 'flank' charges rear charges (where the charger fails to fulfil some of the requirements the default is front not flank).
If I try to envisage the requirements for a flank charge and twist them by 90 degrees then the concept of 'Flank Protection' looms large (and confusing).
I would guess it might be if all the chargers start behind a line drawn across the rear of the keil it would count but what if the rear rank of the keil is made up of files of different depths?
HELP.
Mike
Quote from: Mike Klaka on September 17, 2021, 05:39:57 PM
As a complete novice I am having difficulty with the definition of a rear charge. P121 to p123 gives lots of diagrams and helpful words that explain a flank charge but I can see nothing on what constitutes a rear charge. I am guessing it cannot be as simple as reversing the direction the troops receiving and front becomes rear as that would make a lot of 'flank' charges rear charges (where the charger fails to fulfil some of the requirements the default is front not flank).
If I try to envisage the requirements for a flank charge and twist them by 90 degrees then the concept of 'Flank Protection' looms large (and confusing).
I would guess it might be if all the chargers start behind a line drawn across the rear of the keil it would count but what if the rear rank of the keil is made up of files of different depths?
HELP.
Mike
as per a flank charge but the base hits the rear of the enemy base before the flank. As far as I am aware that is the only criteria. A Keil is just about the only time it becomes relevant