I've had a couple of games now - losing both, but enjoyably - with my Nikephorian Byzantines. Last game a couple of questions cropped up re the Skutaoi - which I had upgraded to 1/2 front rank long spear & 1/2 rear rank bow. So -
1. Do the skutatoi get the bonuses for long spear if they are in 2 ranks - the front rank long spear & the second rank bows? Or do they need to be in 4 ranks to get this - 2 ranks of long spear & 2 ranks of bow (& if so can they shoot over 2 ranks of spear?)
2. When they lose a base, who dies? The front rank close order long spear or the rear rank loose order bow?
Thanks in advance.
The skoutatoi will only get the claims for long spear if the bases actually with the long spear combat ability are in 2 ranks; the bow only bases do not count for this.. Note however, that the claims that long spear cancels such as Charging Lancer do not require the spearmen to be in 2 ranks.
They can shoot over 2 ranks of spear - page 58 section F.
Which base to remove is covered by page 143 section G. The front base is removed.
Hope that helps.
OK, thanks for this - so if i've upgraded the skutatoi the long spear are also experienced/bow - as well as the archers. To get the benefit of long spear I have to be in 2 ranks, the TUG has to 50/50 spear & bow - which then means 2 ranks of archers behind the spear, which really only works with UG's of 8 - although the lists say UG's can be 6 or 8. Presumably the bow can't shoot in 4 ranks so I'm not sure I understand the benefit of the 'upgrade' or how this reflects Byzantine tactics?
Two ranks of bow CAN shoot over two ranks of spear. So 50% spear and 50% bow works ok in TuGs of 8. If grouping in 6s you probably don't want mixed TuGs.
The formations are based on 2 Byzantine manuals which you can get in translation if you want - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sowing-Dragons-Teeth-Byzantine-Dumbarton/dp/0884022242
The formations are basically massed shooters with some close combat ability and you need to use them as primarily shooters IMO. That they can shoot at full effect even when using Shield Cover per the Special Rule in the list is a powerful uncosted ability.
A single rank of long spear does not get the benefit of any combat claims, however, by denying some of those the enemy could claim (basically all the mounted charge ones bar nellies) they can swing the combat "indirectly" - it isn't always about the plusses you get, those the enemy don't get are important too.
...but they are all bow if upgraded, the front 2 ranks have long spear too. So can they shoot in 4 ranks?
Thanks for reminding me that I have 'Sowing the Dragons Teeth' - a quick glance at this suggests the heavy infantry didn't have bows, deploying 2 ranks of spearmen, then 3 ranks of archers, then another 2 ranks of spears. So based on the Nikephorian Byzantine army lists skutatoi with integral archers would 'seem' to be the best fit (on the tabletop they'd be 2 ranks heavy spear with a base of bows behind) - arguably the regrade would work too if the front rank spearmen weren't also bows (i.e. 2 ranks just long spear with 2 ranks bows).
The units are intended to be deployed two deep (so 3 wide for 6 base units and 4 wide for 8 base units) with one rank of Close with Long Spear+Bow in front and one rank of Loose with Bow behind them. This would mean that they shoot as normal. The Long Spear does not give you a claim during Impact or Melee but it does deny charging mounted troops claims for Charging Lance, Long Spear, Mounted Polearm or Devastating Charger. The upgrade from Loose to Close also removes the mounted factor for fighting Loose Foot in good going. If you also take the optional shield wall (must be for both ranks) it will stop non-Elephant shatters and shoves plus negate Mounted Melee expert.
If you choose to deploy them in other configurations then other benefits may accrue: so for instance deploying an 8 just 2 wide would allow the Long Spear to count as 2 deep and use their factors but would mean that the rear 4 Bow bases would not be able to contribute shooting dice.
Hope that helps
Why can they not shoot over 2 ranks of spear? P. 158 F: Overhead Firing has no such restrictions.
Quote from: rage13 on July 11, 2020, 12:47:36 AM
Thanks for reminding me that I have 'Sowing the Dragons Teeth' - a quick glance at this suggests the heavy infantry didn't have bows, deploying 2 ranks of spearmen, then 3 ranks of archers, then another 2 ranks of spears. So based on the Nikephorian Byzantine army lists skutatoi with integral archers would 'seem' to be the best fit (on the tabletop they'd be 2 ranks heavy spear with a base of bows behind) - arguably the regrade would work too if the front rank spearmen weren't also bows (i.e. 2 ranks just long spear with 2 ranks bows).
IMO that is not the best representation and does not get the correct effect which is of a formation based on massed archery as its primary function and not as a potentially offensive spearman formation which is what 2 ranks of spearmen gets you; additionally I would suggest that it also does not reflect the possible need to double the ranks from Ouranos' manual which the 50:50 spearmen/bowmen formation nicely allows.
That the spearmen in the formation do not have bows does not mean that the spearmen bases in our tabletop representation should not have a missile capability - these things do not necessarily map so directly and getting the effect of the formation is important.
However, the list obviously allows a spearman formation for those whose interpretation differs so all the bases (ahem) are covered here ;D
Welcome aboard rage 13.
Essentially these troops were bowmen protected from cavalry by some long spear.
So this is best repressed by
Spear-Bow. with bow behind.
You will find them rather effective at blocking enemy cavalry they cancel out lancers etc. even in 1 rank.
I tend to use them in 6s and only that way.
Shield cover also lets them block enemy shooters white well.
If you are prepared to have them in 8s you have an alternative option to deploy them 2 wide and 4 deep with all the Long spear at the front. Then you have the Long Spear factors as well and year rear bow can shoot over bases in their own TuG.
It is less historical of their purpose and strength. But the rules give you the choice of a narrow front with factors or a wide front with more firepower.
Its a great army and I think he method represents them better than anything previous. I've had Nikes since 1981! Always been a favourite.
Si
Si
>rear bow can shoot over bases in their own TuG.
But shooting is by file? And whereas there is a downgrade in dice colour for having less than the minimum ranks shooting, there is no upgrade for having all ranks able to shoot?
So unless I am missing something, what the rear bow ranks add in 4 deep configuration is resilience, not increased firepower.
'steads' said there is a benefit in upgrading from loose to close order - but the bows are still loose formation, so very vulnerable in the 2nd rank once the front rank dies.
Someone else said the 2 deep formation was to encourage historical tactics - to my mind that is largely determined by the General, not the troops. When I have used these in 2 ranks i had 4 units of 6 bases. I used them to aggresively advance across the table, forcing my opponent to charge me or get shot to pieces. IMHO if the front rank long spear didn't have bows, then i would use 3 units of 8 - but would be much more worried about flanks because of my reduced frontage and would probably try to sit them somewhere where at least 1 flank was secure - and stay there - but then the 4 deep formation is too deep.
it does seem odd that a formation that had 2 ranks of spear, 3 ranks of bow & then another 2 ranks of spear have some of them given weapons they didn't use to make them work properly. Although thinking about it I suppose effectively each rank of a 2 rank formation contains some long spear & some bow - so maybe this is the best representation? I do think that the integral shooters option is less realistic.
Quote from: ShrubMiK on July 11, 2020, 10:21:04 PM
>rear bow can shoot over bases in their own TuG.
But shooting is by file? And whereas there is a downgrade in dice colour for having less than the minimum ranks shooting, there is no upgrade for having all ranks able to shoot?
So unless I am missing something, what the rear bow ranks add in 4 deep configuration is resilience, not increased firepower.
Correct
Si
Quote from: rage13 on July 11, 2020, 11:12:27 PM
'steads' said there is a benefit in upgrading from loose to close order - but the bows are still loose formation, so very vulnerable in the 2nd rank once the front rank dies.
Someone else said the 2 deep formation was to encourage historical tactics - to my mind that is largely determined by the General, not the troops. When I have used these in 2 ranks i had 4 units of 6 bases. I used them to aggresively advance across the table, forcing my opponent to charge me or get shot to pieces. IMHO if the front rank long spear didn't have bows, then i would use 3 units of 8 - but would be much more worried about flanks because of my reduced frontage and would probably try to sit them somewhere where at least 1 flank was secure - and stay there - but then the 4 deep formation is too deep.
it does seem odd that a formation that had 2 ranks of spear, 3 ranks of bow & then another 2 ranks of spear have some of them given weapons they didn't use to make them work properly. Although thinking about it I suppose effectively each rank of a 2 rank formation contains some long spear & some bow - so maybe this is the best representation? I do think that the integral shooters option is less realistic.
I think its probably the best overall representation you can provide at battle scale. A little general on bowfire. Arguably the rear ranks might be best represented by allowing orb.
Byzantine infantry have always been a bit difficult to represent in Ancients games. I think it is because they were an answer to a particular problem. The Byzantines main enemy at the time were cavalry who either charged home (Arab long spear cav, various Westerners) or skirmished and shot (Steppe nomads, various Moslem cav). An all bow formation would be ridden down by the charge-y types and an all spear shot up without reply by the skirmishers. So this hybrid was developed, which has been a bit difficult to represent for rules that assume a unit has to be either fight-y or shoot-y.
We know somethings about this infantry though - for example it wasn't the main fighting part of the army, that was the cavalry. The manuals describe the infantry supporting and covering the cav - even providing a "box" they can fall back into. Even against other infantry they weren't used aggressively - there is an account against the Rus on the steppe where the archers are used to shoot them up and then the Varangians are sent in for the hand to hand. However they weren't just all wimpy bow either. They were put on the flank in march formation to hold off the enemy (with spears +shooting) and as I say they sometimes formed a protective box for the cavalry (ie they could stand when a load of triumphant enemy cav were rushing towards them)
I think MeG represents them quite well - and it has a couple of neat features. As Nik said there is an instruction in one manual for doubling up a unit to give more resilience (and perhaps punch). If you take 8s in MeG you can do that. Also the menavlatoi have been difficult to represent - the manuals have them as a thin "skin" at the front of the infantry to help resist mounted charges - and MeG allows you to do this by getting the shieldwall characteristic. But MEG isn't too proscriptive - if you don't accept those interpretations you don't have to take the infantry that way, you could have sixes without shieldwall for example.
So overall I think this current MeG classification is the best I've seen for trying to represent Byzantine infantry