MeG

Hi there,
To pick up on another thread - how to classify these troops. So my thoughts simply put:

Instinctive Command
Very best mounted: Drilled Loose Superior Protected Lancer Devastating Charger Melee Expert
Riders raised to defend Rohan: Formed Loose Average Lancer optional Melee Expert for 50%
It might be that all these could have charge only bow as well and Dismountable?

Foot would be the peasants and town folk: Tribal Close Average Short Spear maybe 50% Shieldwall? Optional Integral Shooters.
Plus a very few foot skirmishers.

Remember though that a list in isolation is near worthless and its how they interact that is crucial. But this is a start! All ideas welcomed.

I agree that  the lists cannotbe considered in isolation. At Pelennor Fields,the Rohirrim beat opposing cavalry even where significantly  outnumbered.I would givet them all ME,given Simon's classification of Easterling and Southron cavalry.The Rohirrim should be a bit better in melee.I would also give them all DC for the same reason. Set to fight equal numbers of Haradrim,the Eorlingas should mostly win unless their dice totally go to hell.

I am not sure why folks think the Marshal's Eoreds should be Drilled. Idon't see it myself. What have I missed?

I can understand the urge to make Theoden's Royal Eored Exceptional. I am not certain it should be any different from the Eoreds of the Marshals. I suspect Superior is plenty good.

In the original 'Eye" lists Simon made Eomer an ally general. While Eomer was briefly in exile, I'm not happy with this classification. In battle, he was utterly loyal and completely reliable.

Hiya,
Well, Drilled for the very best/professional/retained riders partly for that reason but also because they could communicate in plain language with their mounts! Drilled offers them them the big advantage of tempting other mounted to charge them.

If Haradrim etc are Short Spear , maybe a few with ME then the Rohirrim have a significant advantage with extra factors and shatter.
Lance.

Really interesting response,Lance! We are thinking about the same things but applying them in different ways.

It's worth pointing out (as you do) that the Riders of Rohan were generally better horsemen and had better horses than their opponents. You think, not unreasonably, that this might make them 'drilled', which takes into account better communication of orders to both horse and rider.  I see the same factor (better communication between horse and rider) as increasing fighting ability, but not really a substitute for regular practice and maneuver as a unit, which is what drilled implies. That's a big part of the DC I want to give them (better mounts tend to win charges) as well as ME (better horsemanship makes melee combat more effective).

I still think that the basically clan/tribal nature of Rohan makes drilled troops harder to swallow, but I do understand why you disagree. Forth Eorlingas! Fear no darkness!

It does seem as though we are on similar lines.

Drilled only for the permanently embodied units formong the Eorls bodyguards, so they would be limited to 4

Then my fat fingers cut in....

The 4`s would be only for a generals bodyguard and therefore one TuG per command.
As the army was bulked out with levy and militia types I would not have all the mounted as CL, DC, ME.
An alternative solution might be to have front rank CL, DC and ME and the rear rank without ME?

I might also include a unit of mounted scouts with SS and ME that wouldnt therefore go charging off all over the place!

Must do some more research.
Lance.

The First Marshal of the Riddermark was the highest military rank and commanded the Muster of Edoras: Riders of the capital Edoras and the surrounding lands, including the King's Lands and Harrowdale.

In his youth, King Théoden had led the Riders of the Muster of Edoras himself, so that no First Marshal was needed and at the time of the War of the Ring, there was no First Marshal.

The Second Marshal of the Riddermark and was based in the Helm's Deep and around the War of the Ring it was filled by Théoden's son, Prince Théodred.

The Third Marshal of the Riddermark was based at Aldburg in the Folde and around the War of the Ring it was filled by Éomer.

All of the above would have have permanent retinue - hence the King & Marshalls Éored. The Kings Éored perhaps should be an upgrade to avoid getting 24 bases. The drilled status is just a mechanic to given them a better control over what is in essence a 'impetuous' type.

I'd be reluctant to make them CL just to avoid in unbalance it will cause to lists like the Dunlending whom fought a bloody war ~ T.A. 2759 (read Appendix "The House of Eorl")
Post the winter of the war Rohan recovered very slowly. Beren welcomed Saruman and allowed him to dwell in Isengard in T.A. ~2759 hoping that he would help the Rohirrim. The following years, after 2799, the Orcs who were defeated and fled from the Battle of Azanulbizar, attempted to establish themselves in the White Mountains. As they crossed Rohan, they were eradicated. However, i don't see this is a pushover - and was hard fought.

D/C, SS , ME is about right to me. I'm not wedded to the bow idea, as it was a gimme for the Battle of Middle Earth players.

We also should consider that Tolkien was inspired by Goths, Scandinavians and the medieval Anglo-Saxons for the Rohirrim. The Goth equivalent would be superior D/C, so we are already being generous. I suggest not diverting too far from a historical archetype to avoid balance issues.

Thanks for this detail.
So what if the Marshals` retinue were CL DC Superior Protected and drilled optional ME and Charge and shoot Bow but the standard Rohirrim were Formed Average DC SS front rank ME optional Charge and shoot Bow?
Indeed happy with the Goth/Viking/Saxon look and general feel, so the above would match that fairly well?
Maybe the levy foot shouldnt be Shieldwall as this will make them too good against other foot DC types? But will allow some cheap filler to balance the cost of the quite powerful mounted who will still be obliged to protect their more vulnerable foot?
And what about the unit of SS scouts?
Lance.

like this

(http://badwargamers.com/bad/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Screenshot-2020-06-10-at-17.26.43.png)

I like it, not least the presentation!

1. Should the Kings Bodyguard be Exceptional? Were they that good?
2. Max bases for their TuG should be 4? If they are a separate line.
3. Should Eored be Experienced bow or Charge only Bow? The former might lead they to be more Horse Archers than anything else?
4. Are the Skirmishing Horse allowed? Dont have a big issue with it myself, especially if the other horse are Charge only.
5. What about the foot levy - an additional line being Tribal Close, Average, SS, optional CS, in 6`s to 8`s ? Max of 24?

Regards, Lance.

Apparently in Unfinished Tales the Kings and Marshalls Eored were only a company strong, or about 120 men.There is also mention of small numbers of Horse Archers.
So I would suggest the Guard Eored are in units of two bases only. List wise then they should be 2 to 8 bases in UGs of twos?
Lance.

I have not read much of Unfinished Tales.Is that where all the shootiness of the Rohirrim is coming from? I don't see it from the Trilogy.
I do understand that Tolkien based them on the Goths, but Tolkien was not bound to the concept when it came to military tactics. I really don't understand the reluctance to give the basic horsemen lance.It's true that this means they will whip any opposing cavalry unless heavily outnumbered, which I frankly think is accurate. Riders of Rohan basically rolled right over vastly superior numbers of Orcs when charging mounted (Pelenor Fields and Helm's deep). They beat the stuffings out of riders from Harad, Khand,and various Easterlings as well.They got in trouble when surrounded by superior numbers. Why do we want to make them basically the same (or only slightly better than) their opponents? They should be much better than, and many fewer than, their enemies.

Certainly dont want to make them the same as other troops!

If Harad cavalry are short spear then the lancers are up 3 at impact with shatter and the Rohirrim are up one at impact with shatter. Combine this with Charge and shoot bow and a leavening of ME and they will be powerful.

Average loose order Orcs will suffer even more.

So this should make them much better than their natural enemies and outnumbered too?

Probably the only other lance armed types for LOTR would be Gondorean knights, certainly of any quality anyway?

But everything is in a melting pot for now.....and what about a LOTR competition/meet my preciousssss?
Lance.

Unfinised Tales - The Battles of the Fords of Isen

Prior to the first battle Theodred advances over the Isen towards Isengard:

"Leaving three companies of Riders, together with horse-herds and spare mounts, on the east bank, he himself passed over with the main strength of his cavalry: eight companies and a company of archers, intending to overthrow Saruman's army before it was fully prepared."

also Unfinished Tales it describes the ride of Eorl; "Eorl led forth some seven thousand fully-armed riders and some hundreds of horsed archers."

You may choose to interpret these as three detached companies contained horse archers. Though alternatively the 'heavy' cavalry companies could also have contained some archers. Also within 'unit group' whether they would be combined

In Eomer's battle at the eaves of Fangorn an Eored contained at least a few horse-archers. So either every Eored contained about 10% horse archers, and they could be grouped together from bigger formations. Or every Eored contained some (10%?) horse archers and about 1-in-10 Eoreds were completely horse-archer.

Revised

(http://badwargamers.com/bad/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Screenshot-2020-06-11-at-11.18.50.png)

to compare to a natural opponent

(http://badwargamers.com/bad/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Screenshot-2020-06-11-at-11.21.26.png)

I think that this list is improving each time it is tweaked.
Minima and maxima for Eored might be on the high side?
Shield wall for Horseless warriors is maybe too generous? But not if they were Eored and could then be ME?
But the list allows for options and after all LOTR is very much about personal interpretations and not least game balance too.
Lists are only essential for competition games when all must be seen to be fair and regulated, otherwise they serve as an excellent guide and provide thought for others to do their own thing.
Lance.

From Thane Maxwell's army lists

1) The Rhovanion or Eotheod army lists 3rd age 1-1977 and 1856-2510 respectively.

2) Rohan third age 2510+

Rohirrim described as primarily charging cavalry armed with lance (long spear?), sword, shield and mail. There is no mention of double arming and good archers were described as in short supply at the Battle of Helms Deep. Horse archers are described and equipped with mail, sword and in a close support role in battle. They constituted perhaps a third of Eomer's riders pursuing the Orc raiders that captured the Hobbits. An Ally General represents the dual command of two Marshals when the King was not present. For Wulf's rebellion against Helm in TA 2758 there would be need for a Dunmen list. The cavalry (knights) could dismount and fight well as described at the Battle of the Fords of Isen and Pelennor and Morannon. Forming a shieldwall was also described at the former battle. The option to start dismounted relates to Grimbold and Erkenbrand's troops who lost their horses at the Isen but turned up to fight on foot. The Household Eoreds appear to be permanently standing so deserve a classification to reflect that (drilled). Other riders are inferred to manoeuvre effectively and feign retreat so their classification should reflect the same (see the account of the Battle of the Fords of Isen where 3-4 separate actions are described to give a fuller descriptive content of Rohan's military tactics).

Troops (by elements):
CinC the King, Reg Kn ordinary, 1.
Sub Gen as above, 1-3.
Ally, Reg Kn ord, 0-1.
Household and veteran Eoreds, Reg Kn Fast, 18-36 elements.
Horse Archers Reg LH superior, 6-18 (no more than a third of Eored).
Levy Eoreds Irr Kn fast, 0-18.
Levy spearmen, Irr Sp (O), 0-16.
Levy archers (as separate bow SuG or psiloi within the ranks), 0-12.
White Mountains Irr auxillia (O), 0-4.
Downgrade any knight cavalry to spear foot (Irr Sp ord) or Reg sword foot (ord), all/0/or by seprate commands.

Allies:
Gondor of the Steward.
Ents.

Terrain:
cold, waterway/rivers, road, BUA, woods, orchards, rolling hills, marshy ground.

Rhovanion then Eotheod lists Third Age 1-1977 and TA 1856-2510 respectively.

Credit again to Thane Maxwell.

A list that covers the 'Northmen' armies of Rhovanion (specifically located around the Brown Lands south of Mirkwood and east of the River Running). These were the precursors of the Rohirrim and longstanding allies of Gondor of the Kings (who may well have assisted them in turn as a provincial ally). They lived in tribal settlements centred on fortified burghs and were great breeders of horses. Vidugavia was their greatest King in the 15th century TA and Marhwini assisted Gondor at the Battle of Dagorlad in 1899. They were weakened by the great plague of 1636 (as were many 'Men of the West'), then subjugated by the Wainriders from the East in 1856. (As is often inferred in Tolkien mythos plague considered dark magic or an archetypal force made manifest by the main evil protagonist of the time archetype as proteon given form?). Remnants revolted and some regained their freedom in 1944 but not their numbers. The Eotheod become distinct by 1856 and settled the lands between Carrock and the Celebrant. Population pressure and the growing shadow of Dol Guldor forced them north into the Vales of Anduin under the leadership of Frumgar. Eorl the Young then led them to the crucial Battle of the Field of Celebrant to assist Cirion of Gondor, who gave them Calenardhon by way of gratitude.

Troops (by elements):
CinC Irr Kn Fast 1
Sub as CinC 0-1
Ally as Irr Kn Fast 1-2
Horse Irr Kn Fast 18-48
Horse archers Irr LH fast or superior 4-12.
Spearmen Irr spear inferior 0-24.
Levy Archers as Bow armed SuG or supporting bow in the ranks (psiloi), 0-12
Upgrade spearmen to armoured spearmen Irr sp ordinary, 0-50% of existing spearmen elements above.

Allies:
Gondor of the Ship Kings.
Kinstrife Gondor.
Later Royal Gondor.
Dorwinnian.
Woodmen (Eotheod only).

terrain:
cold, agricultural, woods, woods, river, hills gentle, orchards, vineyards, marsh, road, BUA

Great chat and thoughts all.

For my two penneth.

I would see them all as SSp, DC, Melee Expert, Charge-only bow.
1 exceptional 4 and a Superior 4 for each leader.
And all as formed.

It also means they keep their +s in lightly roughed up terrain.
Which will give them a decent match for the wargs.

I think in this we want heroes, wizards and generals.  Any character could be any or all of them.
So then we have Eomer as a hero-general and and Eowyn as hero(ine).

Si

Leaving Drilled CL for the Knights of Gondor.

However without any CL the top Eored loose a point of punch in the open. It also means that they are less affected by losing a base and therefore not qualfying for the DC. They are the Horse Lords after all and the guard should really be about as good as it gets?
I can easily live with the Exceptional Kings guard as it is easy to downgrade them.
The only other CL of any quality would be Gondorean knights for sure.
But its fantasy and open to so much interpretation!
Lance.

Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on June 14, 2020, 03:33:49 PM
Great chat and thoughts all.

For my two penneth.

I would see them all as SSp, DC, Melee Expert, Charge-only bow.
1 exceptional 4 and a Superior 4 for each leader.
And all as formed.

It also means they keep their +s in lightly roughed up terrain.
Which will give them a decent match for the wargs.

I think in this we want heroes, wizards and generals.  Any character could be any or all of them.
So then we have Eomer as a hero-general and and Eowyn as hero(ine).

Si

Leaving Drilled CL for the Knights of Gondor.

I have read and respect the arguments for making the Rohirrim SS and not CL. It is possible I am simply too much the dewy-eyed fanboy for Rohan to be objective here, but I just went and re-read the Pellenor Fields  battle. The Rohirrim charge into and smash through a huge mass of Orcs in a  fashion that looks in MeG terms like the Orcs mostly break at first contact. "Great wedges" of the Riders burst through the line  and smash into superior numbers of Easterling and Haradrim cavalry. Tolkien says these are  crushed as well,attributing the result to 'the white hot fury of the northmen' and their greater skills with 'long spears and bitter'.  Both of these troop types are classed as SS. Is the +1 for DC plus possible shatters enough to account for this,or are we compelled to  believe that Theoden got really hot with green dice?   

I am fairly convinced that the Rohirrim relied on a impetuous overwhelming charge. To me,this is best represented by making them  CL, DC, ME, formed. This best represents the huge quality edge they enjoyed over most opponents,as well as the numerical disadvantage they usually fought against.

The discussion of Hero/Generals has given me an idea for a fix that might help solve the problem. This would be a special ability for ROhirrim Heroes. During a charge combat,  unit of riders in which a Hero is fighting in the front rank  gets a bonus we could call 'onslaught' or "FURY of the NORTH' or something similar. If such a unit scores a Shatter result on the charge, all Riders within 3 BW of the Hero benefit from the Shatter  as if adjacent. Subsequent shatters have no additional effect.
With this in place,The Rohirrim would not need the CL characteristic. Players would have the King leading the charge at the head  of his Household, inspiring nearby troops to the peak of Northern white hot fury. Leaders and heroes of Rohan would always fight in the from,as they do in the HolyWrit.Units on their own without benefit of Heroes or Generals would only be slightly better than their opponents.Heroes and generals would be expensive enough that the Riders would usually be outnumbered. The Rohirrim would be highly vulnerable to getting nibbled to death by buckets of white dice. CL could be reserved for Prince Imrahil and his knightly contingent.

A bit outside the box, I confess, but I flatter myself it could make everyone happy?

QuoteTheoden got really hot with green dice?

But it wouldn't be green would it?  Its the same with all the similar dark age armies of this vein , you have to go big or go home. Lets think of Theoden as legendary. put him with the Kings Eored and lead from the front, intersperse with the martials guard and other Eored. Charging in with (SSP (1), DC (1) , Excp (2) , Leg (2)... that 6 factors, assume the Orcs are loose but have a SSP. So probably red & green/yellow vs black.  You cannot fail to get the shatter then you normal Eored to side are (SSp (1) , DC(1) and Shatter (2) .. so back to Red .. and there are no blanks. So the worst you would get is a shatter.

The the King with his drilled Eored, breaks off on a Green, and rinse and repeats next turn. I don't expect regular orcs will give much of a fight. Uruks might be a different proposition

Jason Broomer (and no doubt many followers) do similar with the Alexandrian companions.

Actually you can easily fail to get the shatter, by rolling  a wound on the red and a blank on the yellow/green (or a second wound,still no shatter), but that isn't the point. The point is those Rohirrim near, but not adjacent to Theoden and his wrecking crew of trained killers. I freely concede that Theoden and his Eored will be very hard to stop. The Riders more than 1 BW from him won't benefit,though, and WILL be up only 1 against ss Cavalry Unless the player rolls lots of skulls or s's on his green dice.  Theoden's +6 by no means guarantees a shatter result.
I also do not find any reference to these troops breaking off to charge again. I still think they should be 'formed', as I thought you agreed several posts ago. This would not preclude the break off and charge again tactic, but it would make it harder to pull off.
IMHO the Horse Lords should be easily the best cavalry going, head and shoulders above the rest, with the possible exception of the Knights of Dol Amroth, which I take to be a picked bodyguard unit and not a large contingent.

Just my ideas.

Having just got a copy of MeG I started out trying to see if I could convert my existing DBM Tolkien Army Lists from Thane Maxwell before trying out a pacto learning game. Working my way toward setting up a small encounter based on where Sauron attempts an ambush with some orcs and easterlings of the vanguard of Rohan and Gondor army on it's way to the Morannon. I admit to not having played the game yet for how the nuances will work and trying to balance against Gondor Roquen cavalry and Dol Amroth and the 1st and 2nd age elite elf cavalry of Beleriand (the definition of 'superior').

Here is my initial idea for Rohan under Théoden/Eomer:

Household knights   CAVALRY   Drilled Close   Superior   Protected   Long Spear   -   -   DevastatIng Chargers   Melee Expert   Dismountable   -

Riders of Rohan   CAVALRY   Tribal Close   Average   Protected   Long Spear   -   -   DevastatIng Chargers   Fleet of Foot   Dismountable   -

Rohan Horse Archers   CAVALRY   Formed Loose   Superior   Protected   Short Spear   Experienced   Bow   Feigned Flight   Shoot & Charge   -   -

Rohan Household Infantry   INFANTRY   Formed Close   Average   Protected   Short Spear   -   -   Integral Shooters   Melee Expert   Shove   Shieldwall

RoRoh dismounted   INFANTRY   Tribal Close   Average   Protected   Short Spear   -   -   Integral Shooters   Shove   Shieldwall   -
Rohan skirmishers 0-30%*   INFANTRY   Tribal Close   Average   Protected   -   Experienced   Bow   -   -   -   -

Archers 0-20%*   INFANTRY   Tribal Loose   Average   Protected   -   Experienced   Bow   -   -   -   -

QuoteThe Riders more than 1 BW

thats the point though , you don't really get any where they cannot be influenced by their betters. 16 bases of Superior and Exceptionals and 24 bases of Average is works out to be about ~6K , thats giving you 8 tugs ... after costing generals and a few 'addons' you don't get anything else in a regular 10K army. There is a problem with the lists in that the min and max need review

As an aside if you make them CL when the same costs ~7K so you shrink even further.

Well if a legendary general leading exceptional lancers that are also devastating chargers against loose orcs that are DC too isnt enough, thats a +8 I believe, then we just have to live in hope!
The game system is very much set up to replicate this commitment of good generals leading good troops to pierce the enemy line. And if the charge should fail the melee combat is still at +5....
If the gods are against you, then so be it.
If the worry is that the Kings Eored cant win through then put another general led unit next to them?

I dont have a problem with shock cavalry breaking off to charge in again, because that is what good troops well led did, it is  a big drain on command cards though as a counterbalance.

Its all quite subjective in the end!
Lance.

Another fine stream of thinking.  Si