The balance between foot-polearms and foot-longspears seems off to me, which makes me feel like I'm overlooking something important.
As far as I can tell, compared to each other (which is a choice several armies have):
PA gets to keep its +1 to charge in one rank, and may keep its +1 to melee vs mounted.
LS has to stay in two ranks for its claims, but gets an extra +1 vs mounted, and cancels enemy cavalry's charging Longspear, Devastating Charge, and Melee Expert (which PA does not).
Considering they cost the same points (okay, PA costs 1 point more :P ), LS seems like hands down the better weapon. Which makes me feel like I'm missing something.
What is it I'm not getting? (And how do you all make the best of your Polearms' advantages?)
Thanks, everyone!
The +1 in 1 rank in melee against mounted has always seemed very hand to me for PA.
Overall if the points are a bit out (and they may well be) it isn't enough to worry me - close enough for government work as they say.
In general polearms represent reasonable value in mixed units where there is a single rank of them.
Whole units of polearm are not so great (except for Qin with Dev Charger).
Has been made a bigger issue by the latest list changes which have removed mixed units from many armies.
Martin
Quote from: Doomsmile on March 11, 2020, 07:27:50 PM
The balance between foot-polearms and foot-longspears seems off to me, which makes me feel like I'm overlooking something important.
As far as I can tell, compared to each other (which is a choice several armies have):
PA gets to keep its +1 to charge in one rank, and may keep its +1 to melee vs mounted.
LS has to stay in two ranks for its claims, but gets an extra +1 vs mounted, and cancels enemy cavalry's charging Longspear, Devastating Charge, and Melee Expert (which PA does not).
Considering they cost the same points (okay, PA costs 1 point more :P ), LS seems like hands down the better weapon. Which makes me feel like I'm missing something.
What is it I'm not getting? (And how do you all make the best of your Polearms' advantages?)
Thanks, everyone!
On the factors:
Charge Combat
Long Spear a factor better vs cav which is big difference, and cancels more things than Polearm.
Melee CombatPolearms a bargain vs. cavalry as we see them then becoming a very effective melee weapon against them and no needing to rely on formation. But still a factor less than LSp. Polearms need same ranks as Long Spear against infantry, as we view that as less so and needing to use them more as spear.
Quite a lot of Long Spear have Shove.
So I think we have the rules spot on. Points we will keep and eye on.
Try some hoplites and Chinese vs. multiple opponents and then see what you think:
Charging Lancer Cavalry
Cataphracts with Long Spear
Romans with Impact Weapon
Gauls with Devastating chargerPoints have to think about what they are worth in all situations. Depending on what you are up against they will feel more or less good value....
All input welcome.
Si
Well those match ups pretty much illustrate Doomsmile's point.
The polearm is essentially identical to the spear against the foot and worse against the mounted (how much worse depends if the mounted also have dev charger or melee expert, both of which longspear can cancel but polearm can't). The single rank thing may soften the blow a bit on some files but is unlikely to have a huge impact.
I have felt for a while that polearm is a victim of a bit of an over-correction from its brief time in the sun as an underpriced wonderweapon. Could easily be 5 points less than longspear.
Martin
Quote from: martymagnificent on March 11, 2020, 08:16:10 PM
Has been made a bigger issue by the latest list changes which have removed mixed units from many armies.
Martin
This to me is the crux of it. PA really had its day in mixed units where it got to leverage the single real benefit it had over LSp. This could justify the cost as you get to use it in its element.
As it stands, PA is over-priced vs LSp. Suggest: Drop the price (-5?) and/or look to expand (rather than cut) the number of mixed units that feature PA.
Dru
All noted. Won't be now. Will watch the play in 2020and choices and then review AB points.
Interactions are right.
The single rank for factors is quite a big thing. And I am not seeing lots of Long Spear so have had my eyes on that for a bit too.
Watching brief.
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on March 14, 2020, 05:25:35 AM
All noted. Won't be now. Will watch the play in 2020and choices and then review AB points.
Interactions are right.
The single rank for factors is quite a big thing. And I am not seeing lots of Long Spear so have had my eyes on that for a bit too.
Watching brief.
Si
Hi,
if the Tureophoroi were flexible or loose, you certainly had more long spear on the mats ( sorry redondant joke Richard ;) )
when I want to play long spears, I choose hoplites
when Iwant to play polearms, I choose chinese armies
just a question of style on table not a question of points or optimization for me .
Regards.
PUNCH " the look of lead :) "
Likewise. Feels pretty close.
5pts a base makes little difference.
100 bases = 500 pts = 1 TuG.
S
Flexible tuerophoroi ...back again ;D...I vote for it and flee from here 8)
Quote from: badhabum on March 14, 2020, 04:13:36 PM
Flexible tuerophoroi ...back again ;D...I vote for it and flee from here 8)
I join the French Belgian pack and push as well!
Alas there is zero historical evidence for it and plenty now that they were Close Order troops.
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on March 14, 2020, 07:04:53 PM
Alas there is zero historical evidence for it and plenty now that they were Close Order troops.
Si
Hi Simon,
it's just a redundant joke with Richard :P, I have no pretention of historical evidence nor real knowledge on how were any armies , I play armies I feel cool, for the look they have, for the fluff sometimes ;-) and use army lists and rulesets like they are that's why I'm fond of MEG.
All the Best.
PUNCH "just a flesh wound ;)"
Man after my own heart.
On of the beauties of Mortem et Gloriam is the points are close enough you can take what you like and enjoy it! And the armies feel right.
Si