Played my Medieval Poles for the first time in MeG yesterday. Prior to this, the list had not really worked right. Now it is pretty interesting.
Anyway, one option is to have TuGs of 1/3 knights and 1/3 mounted crossbow with shoot and charge. This brings up two questions:
1. Do the TuGs have forced charge? Some of the bases shoot, but not the knights in front. It seems reasonable that they should have forced charge, but just not sure.
2. If the TuG stands to receive a charge and the back ranks shoot, does the enemy get +1 in charge combat because the TuG shot, even though the knights who are fighting did not shoot?
1. TuGs with missile weapons and CL/DC that are charge-only have forced charges, but not if they are shoot & charge. They do get free charges for enemy within 3BW directly ahead.
2. Yes as the TuG is shooting.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 10, 2020, 05:06:13 PM
2. Yes as the TuG is shooting.
I'm not sure it actually says that. The claim is "vs. non-charging Cv, Cm, or Ch who shot". It does not say vs. a file* which has shot and the knight base will not have actually shot.
If the intention is that it applies to a file which has shot it may be worth a quick amendment to make that explicit.
* as all shooting is by file I think you could shoot with some bases in a TUG that is charged but not do so with others.
We played...
1. Not forced charge, but also not free charge. Will correct in the future.
2. We played that they were not shooting, as they had Shoot and Charge, so we assumed they would be experienced at shooting and then a the short counter-charge that is assumed for cavalry when being charged. But will know for the future, if that is the final ruling.
Looks like we have a difference of opinion.
Richard thinks that shooting from back ranks grant the +1 for cav shooting and standing and being charged,
Nik feels that since the front rank stand did not shoot, the enemy is not granted the +1 (which is how we played it).
Can we get an official clarification?
Its actually a good one as I hadn't explicitly considered shooters behind non-shooters.
The intent is 1 as its defering charge pace to allow shooting.
Poles better not bothering I suspect therefore.
Are they shoot&charge?
Will need to add "file" to the QRS. Although al factors apply to files.
Si
They are shoot and charge. That was really the final thing that broke in the favor of shooting and then not suffering the +1 to the enemy.
If this is so unusual, I had wondered whether polish knights in mixed units should get crossbow and shoot and charge so that you have a two rank unit. That is how for spear and crossbow are treated, right?
If they are shoot & charge then the trick is to get them into shooting range and declare a charge - if you are shooting and charging rather than standing and shooting your opponent does not get the +1 8)
Indeed.
Exactly my reason for asking.
S
In this turn, he got to charge first. In the previous turn he was too far away to charge and shoot and I did not have the command chips to make a good charge, in any case. It just worked out that I could not launch a reasonable charge, but then he was able to do so.
But you can still declare a charge even if he declares one first.
Yes
Quote from: accard on February 18, 2020, 01:35:27 PM
But you can still declare a charge even if he declares one first.
Do you get to shoot and charge if he charges first? I thought not, but if so, then yeah, that will work.
As long as you declare a charge you get to Shoot & Charge. You shoot immediately, so if both have Shoot & Charge, the UG that declares a charge first, gets to shoot first. Unlike in the Shooting Phase, the shooting is not simultaneous.
Richard
Quote from: RobAustin on February 18, 2020, 08:14:20 PM
Quote from: accard on February 18, 2020, 01:35:27 PM
But you can still declare a charge even if he declares one first.
Do you get to shoot and charge if he charges first? I thought not, but if so, then yeah, that will work.
Yes you do. As long as you actually declare a charge you get to shoot at the point you declare it, it doesn't matter if you then don't actually move your bases and an opponents charge does not preempt your shooting.
Yes indeed. You just shoot second so the initiator has a little edge.
Si
Well, that all makes sense and lets me know how to better play the shoot & charge type. In our case, I would have been able to do free charges, because of the Charging Lancers in front rank and his charges started within 3BW. So I would have gotten the shooting and not been penalized for standing and shooting.
The thing you can do to mess up the enemy with Shoot & Charge is to launch you charge from >3BW, so that he cannot Shoot & Charge, as it is out of bow range. For mounted, that is.
Quote from: RobAustin on February 19, 2020, 07:57:57 PM
Well, that all makes sense and lets me know how to better play the shoot & charge type. In our case, I would have been able to do free charges, because of the Charging Lancers in front rank and his charges started within 3BW. So I would have gotten the shooting and not been penalized for standing and shooting.
The thing you can do to mess up the enemy with Shoot & Charge is to launch you charge from >3BW, so that he cannot Shoot & Charge, as it is out of bow range. For mounted, that is.
In this situation the Shoot & Charge troops should not charge. They then shoot at the chargers as they come in.
The real thing to do to mess them up is wait until they have declared a charge from >3BW and then charge them. That way, they don't get to shoot at all.
Richard
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 19, 2020, 07:30:37 AM
Quote from: RobAustin on February 18, 2020, 08:14:20 PM
Quote from: accard on February 18, 2020, 01:35:27 PM
But you can still declare a charge even if he declares one first.
Do you get to shoot and charge if he charges first? I thought not, but if so, then yeah, that will work.
Yes you do. As long as you actually declare a charge you get to shoot at the point you declare it, it doesn't matter if you then don't actually move your bases and an opponents charge does not preempt your shooting.
But you need to be in shooting range
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 20, 2020, 07:31:31 AM
Quote from: RobAustin on February 19, 2020, 07:57:57 PM
Well, that all makes sense and lets me know how to better play the shoot & charge type. In our case, I would have been able to do free charges, because of the Charging Lancers in front rank and his charges started within 3BW. So I would have gotten the shooting and not been penalized for standing and shooting.
The thing you can do to mess up the enemy with Shoot & Charge is to launch you charge from >3BW, so that he cannot Shoot & Charge, as it is out of bow range. For mounted, that is.
In this situation the Shoot & Charge troops should not charge. They then shoot at the chargers as they come in.
The real thing to do to mess them up is wait until they have declared a charge from >3BW and then charge them. That way, they don't get to shoot at all.
Richard
Well, if the Shoot & Charge do not charge and stand and shoot, the enemy get a +1 in combat, right? Isn't that what we just discussed? So standing to shoot has a big cost, even if the front rank are not shooting.
If mounted Charge and Shoot declare a charge from over 3BW they don't get to shoot no matter what the enemy response is, correct? So if they have declared a charge from more than 3BW they have already messed up and you can just receive the charge.