At the IWC Tournament i had was a little issue.
It seems that for instance a Legendary General becomes a 4 card general if he gets wounded.
In the claries it is said that a Legendary general can be killed once he gets wounded as he becomes a 4 card general.
There is a problem in the wording in the rules.
basically there are 4 types of generals : legendary, talented , competent, mediocre
in the rules there are no 5 card/4 card etc Generals.
For me : "a Legendary general can be killed once he gets wounded as he becomes a 4 card general." Means : a legendary general stays legendary but only has 4 cards
someone also told me that when a legendary general gets wounded :
- he loses his legendary bonus but keeps his command radius as legendary
this all is a bit confusing and i could not find this anywhere.
why speaking about the quality of generals and then talk about x-card general ?
It goes against the kiss principle :
Legendary gets wounded, becomes talented and so on. Not legendary becomes 4 card general which brings confusion.
also in the rules there bits and pieces about the generals in different chapters. there is not one chapter that tells everything about the generals. You have to slalom through the rules.
Also i been told the claries of 2018 are still valid but only in part if not amended by new claries...even if the old ones are not available anymore ?
...still love the rules and i had great games today at IWC with my British counterparts
I would certainly hope that this confusion has been addressed in the new compendium.
A legendary general who is wounded is reduced to 4 cards.
A 4-card general (wounded legendary or a talented) who is wounded is reduced to 3 cards
A 3-card general (twice-wounded legendary, wounded talented or a competent) who is wounded is reduced to 2 cards.
A 2-card general (three-times wounded legendary, twice-wounded talented, wounded competent or a mediocre) loses their cards, but remains a 2-card general.
Question for Simon - does a wounded legendary general fight at +2 or +1 in combat? (I have may have answered this incorrectly yesterday when I was asked).
Further question: Can a floating C-in-C fight in the front-rank of a melee and still dish out cards. I answered this by saying yes. I believe this has been asked before on the forum. The rationale is that the floating capability represents how the army is set up prior to the battle rather than relying on the individual himself. (Julius Caesar at the Battle of the Sambre is the historical example).
p.s. Thanks to everyone taking part in the IWC yesterday. The games seem to have been played in a very good spirit. A few players get a bit passionate when arguing about the rules - they need to remember that once the Umpire has ruled they need to move on. Well done to Jacques for umpiring.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 20, 2020, 08:54:33 AM
Further question: Can a floating C-in-C fight in the front-rank of a melee and still dish out cards. I answered this by saying yes. I believe this has been asked before on the forum. The rationale is that the floating capability represents how the army is set up prior to the battle rather than relying on the individual himself. (Julius Caesar at the Battle of the Sambre is the historical example).
From the draft compendium:
"They can float behind the lines, commanding no troops directly and using their cards to support their professional non-allied sub-generals. This is done by gifting any or all of their cards to any such general within 15BW during the card phase (SP1.3). They lose this ability when in combat as all generals and UGs they are not with are out of command."
Caesar at the Sambre could be argued either way - whilst he takes up a shield it never (IIRC) says he actually fights, only that he goes and sorts out the disorder in the ranks (which in MeG terms may just be removing a wound?).
We have always played that when wounded, a generals goes down one level ...so to me legendary goes to talented goes to competent goes to mediocre and mediocre to mediocre 8)
So wounded legendary becomes talented and talented is +1 with 4 cards
But at IWC nobody asked me the question
Another point was submitted to me :
My general is in a file .
The file is caught on the flank and 2 bases will be assaulted .
The player argued that as both bases were in the same file, he could give bonus to both combat .
My decision was that he had to choose as IMO a general gives his bonus to ONE die roll when in combat.
But that might need a small line in the rules ( if I am correct )
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 20, 2020, 09:25:59 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 20, 2020, 08:54:33 AM
Further question: Can a floating C-in-C fight in the front-rank of a melee and still dish out cards. I answered this by saying yes. I believe this has been asked before on the forum. The rationale is that the floating capability represents how the army is set up prior to the battle rather than relying on the individual himself. (Julius Caesar at the Battle of the Sambre is the historical example).
From the draft compendium:
"They can float behind the lines, commanding no troops directly and using their cards to support their professional non-allied sub-generals. This is done by gifting any or all of their cards to any such general within 15BW during the card phase (SP1.3). They lose this ability when in combat as all generals and UGs they are not with are out of command."
Caesar at the Sambre could be argued either way - whilst he takes up a shield it never (IIRC) says he actually fights, only that he goes and sorts out the disorder in the ranks (which in MeG terms may just be removing a wound?).
Thanks Nik - so cannot float to gift cards and fight at the same time...
What about the rule : out of command you need to play another supplementary colored card to give a command
Giving a command isn't the same as gifting.
Quote from: badhabum on January 20, 2020, 01:04:47 PM
Another point was submitted to me :
My general is in a file .
The file is caught on the flank and 2 bases will be assaulted .
The player argued that as both bases were in the same file, he could give bonus to both combat .
My decision was that he had to choose as IMO a general gives his bonus to ONE die roll when in combat.
But that might need a small line in the rules ( if I am correct )
A classic bit of cheese. This has already been answered on the forum. A general can only give his combat bonus once in any phase. If the file was already in combat, he can only give the bonus to the front base in the file. If the file wasn't already in combat, he can choose which base to fight with.
Note: Generals in combat can play a green card (or white upgraded) to move between files within the same UG. They do not have to take a snivelling little coward KAB test as long as they keep fighting in a front rank file.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 20, 2020, 01:05:46 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 20, 2020, 09:25:59 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 20, 2020, 08:54:33 AM
Further question: Can a floating C-in-C fight in the front-rank of a melee and still dish out cards. I answered this by saying yes. I believe this has been asked before on the forum. The rationale is that the floating capability represents how the army is set up prior to the battle rather than relying on the individual himself. (Julius Caesar at the Battle of the Sambre is the historical example).
From the draft compendium:
"They can float behind the lines, commanding no troops directly and using their cards to support their professional non-allied sub-generals. This is done by gifting any or all of their cards to any such general within 15BW during the card phase (SP1.3). They lose this ability when in combat as all generals and UGs they are not with are out of command."
Caesar at the Sambre could be argued either way - whilst he takes up a shield it never (IIRC) says he actually fights, only that he goes and sorts out the disorder in the ranks (which in MeG terms may just be removing a wound?).
Thanks Nik - so cannot float to gift cards and fight at the same time...
You can float , fight and give card IF the receiver commander is attached to the very same unit.
It has been clarified in the past
Quote from: badhabum on January 20, 2020, 01:01:28 PM
We have always played that when wounded, a generals goes down one level ...so to me legendary goes to talented goes to competent goes to mediocre and mediocre to mediocre 8)
So wounded legendary becomes talented and talented is +1 with 4 cards
But at IWC nobody asked me the question
Then why would you suffer a KAB with a double minus (cdt in chief + legendary) when he dies.
You cannot die on a KAB with a legendary. With 5 cards.
My understanding is that a legendary remain a legendary even when it drops to 2 card general.
This is why they made the distinction between general type and the number of cards
Quote from: Rino on January 20, 2020, 01:30:09 PM
You can float , fight and give card IF the receiver commander is attached to the very same unit.
It has been clarified in the past
The upcoming Compendium clearly states (assuming no changes from the draft I have) that you cannot gift if in combat - no exceptions are given. This may be a slight change to how it has been ruled in the past.
I let my opponent keep his +2 for a Legendary General when I knocked him down to Talented. I couldn't find the answer in the paperwork.
Quote from: rayfredjohn on January 20, 2020, 02:31:04 PM
I let my opponent keep his +2 for a Legendary General when I knocked him down to Talented. I couldn't find the answer in the paperwork.
I've only just started playing, but I would have thought 9.1 D:5 (although I think it should be 3. - Page 54) "
A Sword&Arrow symbol injures a general - he permanently drops a level down (to a minimum of Mediocre) but keeps any cards he is holding." indicates he is no longer "Legendary" and
permanently "Talented" therefore loses the +2? :)
Quote from: Bru on January 20, 2020, 05:08:16 PM
Quote from: rayfredjohn on January 20, 2020, 02:31:04 PM
I let my opponent keep his +2 for a Legendary General when I knocked him down to Talented. I couldn't find the answer in the paperwork.
I've only just started playing, but I would have thought 9.1 D:5 (although I think it should be 3. - Page 54) "A Sword&Arrow symbol injures a general - he permanently drops a level down (to a minimum of Mediocre) but keeps any cards he is holding." indicates he is no longer "Legendary" and permanently "Talented" therefore loses the +2? :)
The UK Tournament Umpire
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 20, 2020, 08:54:33 AM
I would certainly hope that this confusion has been addressed in the new compendium.
A legendary general who is wounded is reduced to 4 cards.
A 4-card general (wounded legendary or a talented) who is wounded is reduced to 3 cards
A 3-card general (twice-wounded legendary, wounded talented or a competent) who is wounded is reduced to 2 cards.
A 2-card general (three-times wounded legendary, twice-wounded talented, wounded competent or a mediocre) loses their cards, but remains a 2-card general.
Question for Simon - does a wounded legendary general fight at +2 or +1 in combat? (I have may have answered this incorrectly yesterday when I was asked).
Further question: Can a floating C-in-C fight in the front-rank of a melee and still dish out cards. I answered this by saying yes. I believe this has been asked before on the forum. The rationale is that the floating capability represents how the army is set up prior to the battle rather than relying on the individual himself. (Julius Caesar at the Battle of the Sambre is the historical example).
p.s. Thanks to everyone taking part in the IWC yesterday. The games seem to have been played in a very good spirit. A few players get a bit passionate when arguing about the rules - they need to remember that once the Umpire has ruled they need to move on. Well done to Jacques for umpiring.
Richard
I guess, in my innocence as a new player, I read the rules and took them at face value. I don't quite get the confusion over that sentence. How can a permanently downgraded general count as a level above for combat (ie counting a downgraded LG, now TG, as +2)?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand why there is a lack of clarity.
Quote from: Bru on January 20, 2020, 09:35:58 PM
I guess, in my innocence as a new player, I read the rules and took them at face value. I don't quite get the confusion over that sentence. How can a permanently downgraded general count as a level above for combat (ie counting a downgraded LG, now TG, as +2)?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand why there is a lack of clarity.
This came up in one of my games at the IWC in Brussels this weekend. We'll wait for Simon to comment.
Simon, any final input for us?
Thanks all on reminding me of a tweak needed in the compendium draft :-)
Full Compendium extractD: DEAD, WOUNDED AND STUNNED GENERALS
1. A general can be killed, wounded or stunned by a KaB test on a general (9.5B ). A KaB test is taken based on the general's current card allowance (see KaB table) when:
1.1. A general is with a UG that is broken - by whatever means - while it is in combat. This represents the general getting wrapped up in a rout and trying to escape with his bodyguards.
1.2. When a general is fighting in the front rank of a file that suffers a base loss (from a kill or a second wound). There is no risk if a general is with a file but not fighting.
2. A Skull kills a general:
o The dead general's base is immediately removed and placed next to the camp, and nearby UGs take a KaB test.
o A replacement general will take over in the turn after the general dies, with professional replacements taking over more quickly than instinctive ones.
• Professional generals are replaced at the beginning of the movement phase (turn sequence SP4.1).
• Instinctive generals are replaced in the end of turn phase (turn sequence SP6.2).
o The replacement general is one quality grade lower than the general who died,
but cannot drop below mediocre - the replacement can't be any worse!
• The replacement general is placed with any UG in their command. If there are no UGs remaining in the command, then no replacement general appears and no cards are dealt.
• Actions can still be prompted while waiting for a replacement general arrives but each actions requires an extra coloured card as everything is considered to be out of command.
3. A X (sword&arrow) wounds a general:
• If competent or better, he permanently drops down a card allowance (to a minimum of 2- cards) but keeps any cards he is holding and retains his status.
• So, a talented general becomes a 3-card talented general. Note that KaB tests are taken based on
current card allowance, so a legendary general can be wounded and then killed.
• If already a 2-card general they lose all their cards as if stunned.
4. An S stuns a general:
• The general loses any cards he is holding immediately.
EXAMPLE: Tertius the Grey is charging with his Gallic barbarians with a YELLOW card saved to recover a wound later. Unfortunately, he is fighting in the front rank and the file he is fighting with suffers a base loss in charge combat. The opponent claims a KaB test against him and as he is a talented general rolls a GREEN dice. He rolls an X and wounds Tertius - he drops to a 3-card talented general for the rest of the game. In melee combat it happens again, and this time his opponent rolls a YELLOW dice as he is a 3-card general. He get an S, so Tertius is stunned and loses his remaining cards immediately. Tertius is stumbling around with a scar and concussion and cannot recover a wound as he intended.
QuoteI would certainly hope that this confusion has been addressed in the new compendium.
A legendary general who is wounded is reduced to 4 cards.
A 4-card general (wounded legendary or a talented) who is wounded is reduced to 3 cards
A 3-card general (twice-wounded legendary, wounded talented or a competent) who is wounded is reduced to 2 cards.
A 2-card general (three-times wounded legendary, twice-wounded talented, wounded competent or a mediocre) loses their cards, but remains a 2-card general.
YES SPOT ON
Question for Simon - does a wounded legendary general fight at +2 or +1 in combat? (I have may have answered this incorrectly yesterday when I was asked).
YES HE IS STILL LEGENDARY (and a bit cheesed odd too!)
Further question: Can a floating C-in-C fight in the front-rank of a melee and still dish out cards. I answered this by saying yes. I believe this has been asked before on the forum. The rationale is that the floating capability represents how the army is set up prior to the battle rather than relying on the individual himself. (Julius Caesar at the Battle of the Sambre is the historical example).
NO. NOW BENEFITING FROM HIS +2 INSTEAD. ANYTHING THAT WAS TO DO WITH SETTING IT UP WELL WAS DONE BEFORE HE GOT IN A FIGHT. I AM SURE CAESAR DID SO.
p.s. Thanks to everyone taking part in the IWC yesterday. The games seem to have been played in a very good spirit. A few players get a bit passionate when arguing about the rules - they need to remember that once the Umpire has ruled they need to move on. Well done to Jacques for umpiring.
INDEED. THERE IS NO PERFECT NAD UMPIRES ARE SERVANTS OF THE PLAYERS DOING EVERYONE A FAVOUR. PASSION IS GOOD - CONTAINED SENSIBLY! THANKS TO JACQUES FOR ORGANISING AND UMPIRING A FINE EVENT.
I thought at one point there was discussion that a killed general also loses his command cards/chits. Was that never actually implemented? Stunned is worse that wounded for Mediocre!
Last line in section 3 of what Simon posted above.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 22, 2020, 05:39:04 PM
Last line in section 3 of what Simon posted above.
Ah, thanks. I was looking for it to generally apply to getting wounded for all generals. But this makes sense.
"• Instinctive generals are replaced in the end of turn phase (turn sequence SP6.2)."
i suppose it is the end of the next turn.
So as i read it legendary general keeps his +2 in combat until he is killed.
Correct in both cases.
Indeed the reason for the card drop rather than grade drop it so sustain that and the ability to move blocks.
S
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on January 24, 2020, 06:20:36 AM
Correct in both cases.
Indeed the reason for the card drop rather than grade drop it so sustain that and the ability to move blocks.
S
Above you make a contradictory statement;
"The replacement general is one quality grade lower than the general who died,
but cannot drop below mediocre - the replacement can't be any worse!"
Quote from: rayfredjohn on January 24, 2020, 08:58:51 AM
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on January 24, 2020, 06:20:36 AM
Correct in both cases.
Indeed the reason for the card drop rather than grade drop it so sustain that and the ability to move blocks.
S
Above you make a contradictory statement;
"The replacement general is one quality grade lower than the general who died,
but cannot drop below mediocre - the replacement can't be any worse!"
Isn't this the difference between wounding and killing?
Quote from: steads on January 24, 2020, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: rayfredjohn on January 24, 2020, 08:58:51 AM
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on January 24, 2020, 06:20:36 AM
Correct in both cases.
Indeed the reason for the card drop rather than grade drop it so sustain that and the ability to move blocks.
S
Above you make a contradictory statement;
"The replacement general is one quality grade lower than the general who died,
but cannot drop below mediocre - the replacement can't be any worse!"
Isn't this the difference between wounding and killing?
Ahhhh, yes. I think you're correct.
It is indeed the different between being wounded and killed.
The team are willing to offer demonstrations if necessary. ;)
S
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on January 24, 2020, 10:17:36 AM
It is indeed the different between being wounded and killed.
The team are willing to offer demonstrations if necessary. ;)
S
To labour the point;
A Legendary General who has been wounded, has 4 cards but retains his +2 in combat AND his ability to command a block of 5 TuGs.
A Legendary who is
wounded again has 3 cards but retains his +2 in combat AND his ability to command a block of 5 TuGs.
A Legendary General who is killed with a Skull in the KaB test, comes back with 4 cards, can only command a block 4 TuGs, looses his +2 in combat. He becomes a Talented General for all game mechanics, including future KaB tests.
Please God I've got this right.
Except that you can't straight kill a Legendary general (because it is a white dice), so you need to add;
A legendary general who has been wounded has four cards, further KABs rolled against him are on a green dice (while he is a 4-carder) ... and then your other points
Quote from: daveparish on January 24, 2020, 11:11:41 AM
Except that you can't straight kill a Legendary general, so you need to add;
A legendary general who has been wounded has four cards, further KABs rolled against him are on a green dice ... and then your other points
Ahh yes, no Skulls
Quote from: rayfredjohn on January 24, 2020, 10:38:10 AM
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on January 24, 2020, 10:17:36 AM
It is indeed the different between being wounded and killed.
The team are willing to offer demonstrations if necessary. ;)
S
To labour the point;
A Legendary General who has been wounded, has 4 cards but retains his +2 in combat AND his ability to command a block of 5 TuGs.
A Legendary who is wounded again has 3 cards but retains his +2 in combat AND his ability to command a block of 5 TuGs.
A Legendary General who is killed with a Skull in the KaB test, comes back with 4 cards, can only command a block 4 TuGs, looses his +2 in combat. He becomes a Talented General for all game mechanics, including future KaB tests.
Please God I've got this right.
You've got it!
Damn, wish Queen Amina knew that on Wednesday night when she was wounded...
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on January 22, 2020, 04:07:34 PM
Thanks all on reminding me of a tweak needed in the compendium draft :-)
Full Compendium extract
2. A Skull kills a general:
o The dead general's base is immediately removed and placed next to the camp, and nearby UGs take a KaB test.
The phrasing indicates the 'nearby UGs' are those near the camp (given the sequence of the writing). I am not sure that is the intent - the KaB test would be WHERE they are broken, I thought.
IF that is indeed the case, needs a tweak to the phrasing. e.g.:
2. A Skull kills a general:
o Nearby UGs take an immediate KaB test and the base of the killed general is then placed next to the camp.
(I assume 'nearby' is defined elsewhere in the compendium).
Quote from: daveparish on January 24, 2020, 11:11:41 AM
Except that you can't straight kill a Legendary general (because it is a white dice), so you need to add;
A legendary general who has been wounded has four cards, further KABs rolled against him are on a green dice (while he is a 4-carder) ... and then your other points
The way its being discussed and written thus far implied a wounded Legendary could get all the way down to 2-cards (but retaining legendary status, +2) and then if killed comes back as a replacement with 4 cards (as a talented, +1).
Is the intent that the card diminishing carries forward too? e.g comes back as a talented but only 2 cards in this scenario? I assume not - the replacement doesn't have the wounds carry over - but does mean at some point you may just want to chuck that legendary in and hope he dies so you get back up to 4 cards from 2...?
No it's an entirely new commander.
Yes you could get a so badly wounded legenedary that he can barely ride a horse but still inspire troops in a charge ...
Charlton Hesston as El Cid ....
Definitely a free box of toys to anyone geuoninely managing that outcome!!
Si