B: BATTLEWAGONS
1. Battlewagon TuGs can be made up of 2 to 4 bases and are exception to legal formations.
2. Battlewagon TuGs can be in one of two formations:
a) a 1BW wide column representing the wagons nose-to-tail in a defensive formation, or
b) a 2BW deep line (1 model) with 1BW gap between each of the wagon elements filled with infantry bases (these bases never fight and are spacers), representing the wagons advancing in line-abreast prior to turning to for a column.
3. They can switch from one to the other using an M9 turn 90° action, representing them forming or breaking from column.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49388652171_af1ca715f5.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ifiKBH)Screenshot 2020-01-15 at 11.32.43 (https://flic.kr/p/2ifiKBH) by Simon Hall (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185117026@N02/), on Flickr
4. A column cannot be kinked. It can wheel but in doing so, no model corner may exceed maximum move distance, thereby limiting the amount it can wheel in practice.. A line wheels as normal.
5. They may shoot only when in column and only from a long edge. They shoot at full effect one rank deep. A battlewagon may shoot from any two of its four BW on its long edges. A player will most often shoot twice from one edge but may choose to shoot once from each side.
6. In combat, each BW of battlewagon frontage counts as one file. If attacked while in line, they do not count the barricades characteristic and each battlewagon can be potentially overlapped on either side. If attacked while in column, they count the barricades characteristic (so no supporting files will be possible by the enemy).
7. Enemy cannot claim combat advantages for flank or rear against battlewagons whether in column or line.
8. They may not charge, intercept, countercharge, pursue, ambush, skirmish, run away or flank march, or make MF1 or MF2 prompted actions.
9. KaB tests against battlewagons start on a WHITE dice independent of their quality.
10. EDITED TO All friendly UGs may pass through a battlewagon TuG in line, due to the gaps between them, but only foot SuGs may pass through a battlewagon TuG in column.
This is a big improvement to the rules, IMHO. I may try WW out this weekend.
Can foot SuG pass through them in column? I would think yes, but the final rule makes it unclear, as it refers to "All friendly UGs...".
Quote from: AntiokosIII on January 15, 2020, 04:21:07 PM
This is a big improvement to the rules, IMHO. I may try WW out this weekend.
Yes it is.
Have to admit they were a bit underthought in vs1.
Big help from players using them.
S
Quote from: RobAustin on January 15, 2020, 05:08:56 PM
Can foot SuG pass through them in column? I would think yes, but the final rule makes it unclear, as it refers to "All friendly UGs...".
Thanks I will check with RJC and kill the ambiguity.
Si
Quote from: RobAustin on January 15, 2020, 05:08:56 PM
Can foot SuG pass through them in column? I would think yes, but the final rule makes it unclear, as it refers to "All friendly UGs...".
I would suggest revising point 10 to say "All friendly UGs may pass through a battlewagon TuG in line, due to the gaps between them, but only foot SuGs may pass through a battlewagon TuG in column."
Richard
Done and now in compendium draft.
S
Having now tried them (in ReG, but the rules are largely the same)...
I have my doubts that you will ever see the line formation. It seems kind of suicidal. may BwG's would be a 4 base unit of shooters, spread across a very wide front that can't shoot at chargers and have no protection from combat at all. Any opponent who had a unit within striking distance would simply sweep them away with ease (in the case of mounted you wouldn't be able to safely finish within 15mu if they hadn't moved yet!).
Might need a rethink (perhaps let them keep barricade factors in line, but not shoot)
Martin
For sure more safely in column. Niche area for sure.
S
Niche indeed I've been playing ancients/ren for a long time and this is the first time I've used BwG's (Ive used similar stuff with Boers in colonial era).
As it is though I think you would only see line against a remarkably passive/stationary opponent. Seems a little odd it is quite that vulnerable as they aren't moving any quicker than the column and the wagons are still there.
Martin
It's how they moved to approach a position before deploying.
For sure vulnerable but will be useful in some situations.
Especially if invading.
S
Was wondering how to duplicate tactics in a Hussite army, and these clarifications work nicely. Switching to line to allow troops behind the wagons to charge out in pursuit of battered enemy works nicely. The only thing I would say, to allow for some historical cases, is to allow mounted and foot to move through wagons in line formation - the Hussites usually opened their wagon formations to allow cavalry to charge out and pursue battered enemies.
Hello and welcome 8)
Quote from: vortigernrex on April 10, 2020, 04:04:52 PM
The only thing I would say, to allow for some historical cases, is to allow mounted and foot to move through wagons in line formation - the Hussites usually opened their wagon formations to allow cavalry to charge out and pursue battered enemies.
They can according to the edited point 10
Quote from: steads on April 11, 2020, 01:52:38 AM
They can according to the edited point 10
Ah - missed that detail. Awesome thanks. A few other Hussite army points but will post it in the army list section. Really like these changes.
Quote from: mad lemmey on April 10, 2020, 09:03:30 PM
Hello and welcome 8)
Thanks - I was a lurker for too long ;D
Welcome aboard and good to see you delurking ...
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on April 11, 2020, 12:27:58 PM
Welcome aboard and good to see you delurking ...
Si
"Uncloaking", please! Delurking sounds so tacky and uncloaking has a touch of Imperial elegance or nerdy Trecky cool
One other thing you may want to consider for future classification of BwG is that many of them have polearm but this is not an effective classification for them.
Polearm is quite an expensive weapon because it does quite a few different things but many of these are not applicable/useful for a battlewagon. It cancels a range of mounted factors which you wouldn't get against a battlewagon any way. It gives impact and melee factors against mounted which are probably a bit of a moot point as battlewagons are already strong enough against mounted that only the most desperate would charge them. Against foot it gives an impact factor but (assuming I am reading the QRS correctly) not a melee factor because BwG can't fight in two ranks.
Essentially against the only opponents that you need help against (ie foot) polearm is a whole lot of points for a single impact factor. I would suggest the mixture of melee weapons that accompanied these wagons would probably be better represented by Melee expert.
Martin
Thanks.
We are pretty proud of how the refined compendium has come out.
What is great is I can't think of a single thing to change right now!
Si
IWC 2023 will see some ART and some Battlewagons so sometimes a few questions will arrise
From the drawing when the BWG goes from line to column (and vice et versa I suppose), the reference point for redeploying the TUG is the very center of the UG, not one of the "flanks" .
Which means that if you have a column of 2 BWG UGs ( 4 NW wide each ) if it receives a block M9 order to go in column, each UG will be recentered, be 6 BW wide and so the block is no more as there will be a gap between both UG ! is it correct ?
Also if I have a block of 2 BWG going forward as a line and they do M9 so turn to go in column they will become larger going from 6 BW to 8 BW . How do we center that ? ( the problem being the drawing which centers the movement so should it be centered of based on one flank
I hope I am clear enough otherwise I can still do some pictures but will have to sent them by mail )
I don't believe that the diagram is meant to be taken that literally or, and perhaps more likely, is not quite correct in the alignment of the 2 formations, as there is nothing in the rules wording that suggest to me that you make the M9 turn 90 degrees is in any way other than the normal way - i.e. on a front corner (PDF edition makes this explicit for M9 BTW). The diagram does, however, show that there is a difference in the way the bases end up compared to a normal UG making an M9 move.
RJC may want to insert something into the PDF edition about the M9 being normal (assuming I've got it right that is ;D ).
The diagram should not be taken that literally. Battlewagons making an M9 action should turn on the front corner as for other UGs.
This has implications for Battlewagons in line in a block in that they may not all be able to turn (because in turning into column the UG becomes deeper).
Richard
OK that is already something
But still if we take the front corner, a block of 2 BWG TUG in column , will not be a block after the move as the new as the new "in line" frontage is less wide . It will still create a GAP.( the question has been asked to me )
Now if the 2 BWG UGS are side by side, forming a block and line. When the units receive a M9 order to create a column, they Will turn 90°( right or left, player's choice) . Now the new width will be more than the original width by at least one BW for each UG. How do we solve that move ? We push back the other UG one BW away of forward the first moved UG ? ( still can sent pictures if need be )
No. You will need a turn and move. That is why I said that some moves may not be possible for blocks.
Richard
Thank you
Ok due to some discussions and disagreements I will try a very simple question :
A BWG UG in line , 2 BWG in the UG so 3 BW wide turns 90° .
So it will become 4 BW wide and needs more space
It could shift a friendly TUG by 1/2 BW to make room if need be but no more so the move might be impossible if more than 1/2 BW is necessary
It may displace a SG up to one BW
It this assumption correct ?
Quote from: badhabum on December 16, 2022, 10:42:13 AM
It could shift a friendly TUG by 1/2 BW to make room if need be but no more so the move might be impossible if more than 1/2 BW is necessary
IIRC the only time you can displace a friendly TUG is when aligning in combat. Do you mean the BWg TUG can make a Universal 1/2 BW Shift perhaps?
Quote
It may displace a SG up to one BW
With the usual restrictions re: shooting and charge range of course.
OK thank you
I knew there was something but did not find it :
QuoteIIRC the only time you can displace a friendly TUG is when aligning in combat. Do you mean the BWg TUG can make a Universal 1/2 BW Shift perhaps?
Two different questions/aspects
The universal 1/2 BW shift . So if they turn , BWG could shift to avoid a friendly UG if going from line to column but not shift a friendly UG
Sorry but still some long covid not always making it easy
Next : displace a friendly UG stickly speaking when aligning initially and not when expanding using MF1
Quote from: lionheartrjc on December 12, 2022, 09:43:38 AM
The diagram should not be taken that literally. Battlewagons making an M9 action should turn on the front corner as for other UGs.
This has implications for Battlewagons in line in a block in that they may not all be able to turn (because in turning into column the UG becomes deeper).
Richard
.
Perhaps make a diagram that is showing the reality of the situation?
The questions asked perhaps show gaps in the explanation about WW
Quote from: Jilu on December 17, 2022, 09:04:28 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on December 12, 2022, 09:43:38 AM
The diagram should not be taken that literally. Battlewagons making an M9 action should turn on the front corner as for other UGs.
This has implications for Battlewagons in line in a block in that they may not all be able to turn (because in turning into column the UG becomes deeper).
Richard
.
Perhaps make a diagram that is showing the reality of the situation?
The questions asked perhaps show gaps in the explanation about WW
Diagram modified for the PDF edition.
Richard
More BWG questions do arrise whe test playing and as there are still disagreements I continue here :
Fighting and shooting
A battlewagon base is 1 BW wide and 2 BW long.
What happened is that the a 2 bases TUG BWG was hit on its short 1 BW edge
The owner still wanted to use the long edge to shoot at other targets arguing that it was not fighting. So it could shhot ..
I argued that the BASE was fighting and so busy . While fighting it could not shoot at all !
BWG as overlap
A BWG can fight as an overlap or one BW of a BWG base could fight as an overlap as if there are no overlaps vs BWG, BWG can fight as overlap !
A battlewagon is treated as 2 files (1 for each BW of frontage) for combat. A file in combat cannot shoot but the file not in combat (or as a supporting file) is eligible to shoot. Indeed it can shoot in both directions (as any 2BW of the long edges of a battlewagon can shoot).
Yes a BWg can fight as a supporting file. It is when fighting against troops with Barricades that you cannot claim a supporting file.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on December 18, 2022, 04:53:21 PM
A battlewagon is treated as 2 files (1 for each BW of frontage) for combat. A file in combat cannot shoot but the file not in combat (or as a supporting file) is eligible to shoot. Indeed it can shoot in both directions (as any 2BW of the long edges of a battlewagon can shoot).
Yes a BWg can fight as a supporting file. It is when fighting against troops with Barricades that you cannot claim a supporting file.
Richard
Yes, the rules for shooting state only 'files' not Bases.
but didnt realize BWg gives support as overlap.
Still have a lot to learn on using BWg :)
2 more questions when shooting with a BWg TUG consisting of 1 Xbow and 1 Gun :
- p184 states Art causes extra slowing effect : so does this means the slowing effect is not limited to 3 BW ? If I hit twice with
Xbow and twice with the Gun, do I cause a 6 BW slowing effect ?
- if a charge on the BWg (in column) hits the 2 BW of Xbow but not the Gun BW (the latter only fire as support during the
charge), does this still qualify for the extra KAB test?
Thx for your responses,
Quote from: Ambiorix on December 18, 2022, 06:27:24 PM
- p184 states Art causes extra slowing effect : so does this means the slowing effect is not limited to 3 BW ? If I hit twice with
Xbow and twice with the Gun, do I cause a 6 BW slowing effect ?
Bad example, imagine 2 BWg with guns causing 8 hits (4 'S') against 2 wide enemy - is the enemy slowed down by 7 BW (3+extra 4) or is 4 BW the max ?
The additional BW slows from S results from artillery shooting are, as they are described, additional to the normal calculation - page 184/5 describes pretty clearly IMO using an example of 2 S hits on a 2 wide UG causing a 4 BW slow. So if you had 4 S results from shooting (not the KaB dice guns/cannon get as they are, as they say on the tin, KaB not shooting) you would indeed cause a 7 BW slow effect ;D
ok THX for the Slowing Effects - clear now to me.
Not sure I understand your expression on the KAB, I presume no extra KAB for guns when (only) shooting in support...
Indeed; as their base is not being charged there is no extra KaB.
Apologies for the colloquialism there :P
The description of BWG may have to be a little bit upgraded ;D
Quote8. They may not charge, intercept, countercharge, pursue, ambush, skirmish, run away or flank march, or make MF1 or MF2 prompted actions.
To be a bit heavy handed : as it is not forbidden, BWG may move to position themselves as supporting file in a melee correct ?
I believe there is nothing in the rules that forbids a Battlewagon from moving into a position to be a supporting file.
Richard